Standards

[MrMichael]

This isn't just another bad patch. Its a ****ing disaster. To be out of both the top competitions in November is a disaster.

Rafa went into the season completely unprepared. We needed 3 things-

1- A striker
2- Alonso's replacement
3- Hyypia's replacement

We didn't get a striker, Alonso's replacement is back 3 months later than expected and after the season started we rushed into signing a defender and ended up signing a crap, average defender who has never ever ever proven himself as being reliable.

Further to that add the injury problems, add that Rafa has made many bad decisions and remains stubborn in the face of obvious deficiencies.

In times of crisis, I expected better from Rafa. Much better

I don't think this is wrong really, but I'm not sure at all that it was really Rafa's fault. Plenty of stuff that's happened since may be, but I really do believe he had the financial rug pulled from under him half way through the summer - we started by signing of Johnson, links with likes of Tevez, various decent defenders and strikers, ended with keeping Voronin and scratching £2m for a random defender who isn't very good. Then we instantly got hit by injuries to various important players. I don't really think those things were massively in Rafa's control.

That's not to say he's getting the best out of what he's got right now, or the suspect qualities of some squad members he signed aren't a factor, but I don't blame him entirely for not having covered the positions you mention adequately when his £20m budget turned out to be a myth.

[FatTony]

I know injuries and poor form, can have a significant impact on the football, but the last few weeks have been terrible. Our injury woes are easing up. It looks like we are finding excuses to cover up our poor form - Gerrard/Torres/Agger/ Owners etc. They are legitimate excuses. However we seem to be making a habit of finding excuses. Great teams, have a unique style of play and go out there and stamp their authority on the game irrespective of the circumstances.

We did that last season. Irrespective of whether Gerrard and Torres played, we played some breathtaking attacking football. It is no coincidence that we displayed the swagger, the belief of champions when we played that way- pummeling opposition into submission, late comebacks, injury time winners etc.

This season we have lost that - period. Injuries have played a role - no doubt about it. But we also seem to be paranoid of playing one attacking CM. Based on the last two performances, I am guessing that Rafa has decided that the way out of this **** form is back to the wall defending and hope that our strikers will convert the only chance or two we create.

There seems to be a dangerous parallel to Houllier. Houllier bough Kewell and tried to go attacking. When it did not work, he did not have the conviction or the nouse to tweak the system. He then went back to the back to the wall defending mode and things went downhill from there.

Whatever team the Mancs put out, more than often they manage to play attractive attacking football. It is a credit to Ferguson that after all these years, he has stuck to that philosophy. They buy players to fit that philosophy and thats why they are able to extract the maximum out of each player.

Thats pretty much spot on in my book.

[Guest]

Thats pretty much spot on in my book.

We've sat back too much out of low confidence, which makes it out as if we're playing 'defensive' football, which is a fallacy.

Nothing has changed since last season, Rafa hasn't tweaked anything or tried to overhaul anything. We basically started the season with too many players off form then there were injuries. That's it, there's nothing to over analyse and panic about that situation.

It's very difficult to go out of this 'rut' and I fully understand Rafa's logic of trying to preserve a result instead of going all out on the attack, which based on people's suggestions that he should play Aquilani straight away, is wrong IMO. Winning breeds confidence, and in our case keeping clean sheets (which we have found hard this season) adds to building this confidence up.

Look at what happened last night, he's 'tinkered' a little by altering the side, and we've lost a game. Fine details like this are very important, and Rafa focuses on them a lot.

[Endless Dream]

Just as well were not getting the new shirt sponsor until next season as there would be countless gags doing the rounds...

[wiw]

I think Rafa got ahead of himself personally, and we've been playing catchup ever since. After the back end of last season we looked solid and excellent going forward and we've tried to continue doing the same from the start of this season, if anything with even more emphasis on attack after signing Johnson. Sadly though we're just not the same team due to injuries, poor form of some key players and the slightly altered system possibly exposing the weaknesses of Carra for example and other areas.

Contrast this with other seasons and we've always started solidly and unspectacularly and built on it as the season has worn on, gradually going through the gears. We're now in December and we're back to trying to stay solid and build on it.

God knows who's to blame, there are a million and one reasons why we're so ****. I love Rafa but he's not having the best season himself. I don't hold him responsible for the state of our squad though - strengthening over the summer was crucial and he had **** all money

I think we've missed Aurelio massively personally, but then he was injured last seaon too. Who the **** played left back last season?

[FatTony]

I think we've missed Aurelio massively personally, but then he was injured last seaon too. Who the **** played left back last season?

24 league appearances last season and Insua 10. Not sure about the other games though, I do seem to recall Skrtel out there on a couple of occassions, but then that could also be drunkeness.

[AFII]

Lack of money is a big reason. £1m net a season two years in a row is a joke.

Rafa must be able to buy both quality and quantity. So far he has only been able to buy one of them.

The first seasons, quantity, after that, quality.

If you buy quantity then you get a stronger squad but a weaker starting XI. Buy quality and you get a weaker squad but a stronger starting XI.

Look at what happened since 2004. First Rafa built up a good squad but the starting XI wasn't great. Now the starting XI is great but the squad is weaker.

That means that he had to sacrifice either squad strength or starting XI strength.

We are now more vulnerable to injuries thanks to that Rafa signs quality instead of quantity.

We will have to live with that until we get a new owner. Squad strength or starting XI strength?

That is why the standards have dropped. Liverpool FC is no longer a club that can compete at the top because we can't sign both quality and quantity.

[peekay]

We've sat back too much out of low confidence, which makes it out as if we're playing 'defensive' football, which is a fallacy.

Nothing has changed since last season, Rafa hasn't tweaked anything or tried to overhaul anything. We basically started the season with too many players off form then there were injuries. That's it, there's nothing to over analyse and panic about that situation.

It's very difficult to go out of this 'rut' and I fully understand Rafa's logic of trying to preserve a result instead of going all out on the attack, which based on people's suggestions that he should play Aquilani straight away, is wrong IMO. Winning breeds confidence, and in our case keeping clean sheets (which we have found hard this season) adds to building this confidence up.

Look at what happened last night, he's 'tinkered' a little by altering the side, and we've lost a game. Fine details like this are very important, and Rafa focuses on them a lot.

Maybe I have been over emphasizing the negatives of Rafa and the parallels between Rafa and Houllier. Maybe, I am misrepresenting what Rafa is attempting to do, as dww pointed out. I am prone to do so, I admit.

However, I still do believe there is a certain degree of truth in what I have stated. I mean the injuries have affected us, no doubt about it. It will affect our confidence, I understand. But considering the number of internationals in our first eleven, I would expect a decent level of football on display, especially in the last three weeks. Do some of the basics correct. The recovery time has been too big.

And as a team, we do lack confidence and I am not sure if all the squad members truly believe that we can win the league. Let us face it, we have been **** from the pre-season onwards. We lost Alonso, which had a huge impact.

We cannot expect to win the league if our performance levels oscillate so much in the absence of a couple of players. Maybe the only reason the Mancs performances do no oscillate to the extent is because of their expensively assembled squad ( even though I believe that Ferguson's ability to put out a more cohesive attacking unit drawing the maximum out of lesser players also plays a role). Considering our finances, unless we d something about our attacking style, then our chances of having a good league campaign is very very less. It will be highly contingent on the lack of injuries and even if we get lucky with injuries and have an outstanding season, it will be a one off event.

[Guest]

Maybe I have been over emphasizing the negatives of Rafa and the parallels between Rafa and Houllier. Maybe, I am misrepresenting what Rafa is attempting to do, as dww pointed out. I am prone to do so, I admit.

However, I still do believe there is a certain degree of truth in what I have stated. I mean the injuries have affected us, no doubt about it. It will affect our confidence, I understand. But considering the number of internationals in our first eleven, I would expect a decent level of football on display, especially in the last three weeks. Do some of the basics correct. The recovery time has been too big.

And as a team, we do lack confidence and I am not sure if all the squad members truly believe that we can win the league. Let us face it, we have been **** from the pre-season onwards. We lost Alonso, which had a huge impact.

We cannot expect to win the league if our performance levels oscillate so much in the absence of a couple of players. Maybe the only reason the Mancs performances do no oscillate to the extent is because of their expensively assembled squad ( even though I believe that Ferguson's ability to put out a more cohesive attacking unit drawing the maximum out of lesser players also plays a role). Considering our finances, unless we d something about our attacking style, then our chances of having a good league campaign is very very less. It will be highly contingent on the lack of injuries and even if we get lucky with injuries and have an outstanding season, it will be a one off event.

We always seem to have a small lull in every season but I don't think it's exclusively us who suffers from it. I think we maybe suffer for longer because of the pressure associated with winning the league, which is huge. It's all good being a fantastic footballer but if your football is affected because you are weak in the mind, then it's not so good having those type of players.

On paper, we are too good to be sitting where we are. Our lack of confidence has accentuated it IMO. That is why I always emphasise on being positive rather than supporters wallowing in negativity. That does translate to our home support. Each time I've watched a home match in the last 4/5 seasons, it's been like a morgue and they've been very slow to get going. This also plays a part in our poor showing. We as supporters should be there whenever the players need a pick up. We have been portrayed as the 12th man by Shankly but I don't see anything with our current lot which gives this theory any credence.

Supporters only turn up on CL matches but very rarely in PL games. There is a general malaise around Anfield these days, which goes deeper than the problems which we think are rooted in the playing and managerial staff. Maybe it's the small/medium club syndrome which has occupied the mindset of the city and most of our supporters? We need to get back to a winning mentality and this is not only the responsibility of the players.

[Tatterdemalion]

Ged was saved by his time off. The season Thomo managed us was our most successfull. He'd lost the plot by the end and probablty would have gone sooner without that years results. Shipping out Anelka for Diouf was symptomatic of the quest to be different that ultimately brought him down. Raffas moves from left field have all been due to restrictions not out of choice.

A little known fact is that Thommo has one of the club's best records in terms of points per game, albeit only over 20 or so.

[peekay]

We always seem to have a small lull in every season but I don't think it's exclusively us who suffers from it. I think we maybe suffer for longer because of the pressure associated with winning the league, which is huge. It's all good being a fantastic footballer but if your football is affected because you are weak in the mind, then it's not so good having those type of players.

On paper, we are too good to be sitting where we are. Our lack of confidence has accentuated it IMO. That is why I always emphasise on being positive rather than supporters wallowing in negativity. That does translate to our home support. Each time I've watched a home match in the last 4/5 seasons, it's been like a morgue and they've been very slow to get going. This also plays a part in our poor showing. We as supporters should be there whenever the players need a pick up. We have been portrayed as the 12th man by Shankly but I don't see anything with our current lot which gives this theory any credence.

Supporters only turn up on CL matches but very rarely in PL games. There is a general malaise around Anfield these days, which goes deeper than the problems which we think are rooted in the playing and managerial staff. Maybe it's the small/medium club syndrome which has occupied the mindset of the city and most of our supporters? We need to get back to a winning mentality and this is not only the responsibility of the players.

It was great discussing with you, mate. I think our interpretation of the root of the problems are different. I think both of us are on slightly opposite side of the fence on certain issues, we have to agree to disagree on those subtleties .

I agree with you on the general malaise thing. One thing I am confident about the Rafa Benitez Liverpool team is that, we can go anywhere and beat anyone while playing some brilliant, entertaining and tactically astute football. I never had that confidence about a Houllier team. However, I am not sure if every member of the squad, shares that confidence. Just my opinion.

I would like also to point out that, even though I have been slightly negative in this thread, at no point do I want Rafa out. I think he is one of the modern day greats.