It's not all doom and gloom...

[Craig_H]

You make as if it's that simple. We are talking football mate, not a proper functional / formal business environment, but there are similarities. Gerrard's attitude would probably have got him the sack lately, in football terms that would have been 'benched' or 'out squadded'. Rafa is responsible for not taking those actions I agree.

I dont know what employment law is like wherever you live, but in the UK, Gerrard's 'attitude' wouldnt have got him sacked in any normal job.

You get sacked for gross misconduct, and having a poor attitude/not pulling your weight isnt gross misconduct.

You might have a situation where a manager has a word and tells the employee to buck up their ideas, and failure to do so would lead to disciplinary action, such as formal warnings, verbal and written - and gradually if it continued over time, it COULD eventually lead to dismissal, but it's a long drawn out process, and you cannot just sack someone so easily like that. They'd string your arse up in court.

[calvoboy]

On a PC management game - fine (though even then only possibly)

In the real world - do you honestly think you could ship out more than half of a first team squad and expect the new replacements to gel into a team that could even challenge for 7th? Really?

The biggest problem we've had this year is playing two defensive midfielders come what may, and telling them to play as defensive midfielders. Right from early in the season most people were saying that Mascher and Lucas offered zero creativity. While one or the other was injured early in the season we had some cracking results. Once they were both fit, and Aquilani wasn't, we were **** going forward. It's partly formation, partly personnel. Last year we played a similar system and had great results, but that was because Alonso was creative from deep positions. The system works even with these players in big games where you need to keep it tight and take your chances when they come, but it doesn't against the ****e of the league where you just need to go out and outscore them, and that's what's costing us dearly.

Excuses have been made, by me as much as anyone, while players were injured and there wasn't much option but for Rafa to pick them. But as the team has recovered fitness recently he's persevered with the same system that doesn't suit the players he currently has at his disposal.

I'm sure in Rafa's mind he already has the solution for the summer, whether to move Stevie back in there, or hope Aquilani comes good, or to cash in on Mascher or Lucas on the back of the World Cup, or to buy better wide players who will get forward and permit 2 defensive players in midfield....but the fact is that it is not working at the moment, and he's being ridiculously blind or stubborn to keep with the same formation with the same personnel.

Without investment and 4th place though, I shudder to think who we might get as a manager. It's not a good reason for keeping someone, but I'm still hoping against hope that Rafa can turn this around, because if he goes in the summer I worry about who is going to want replace him - which I didn't when Houllier left after a similarly disappointing final season.

[Guest]

I dont know what employment law is like wherever you live, but in the UK, Gerrard's 'attitude' wouldnt have got him sacked in any normal job.

You get sacked for gross misconduct, and having a poor attitude/not pulling your weight isnt gross misconduct.

You might have a situation where a manager has a word and tells the employee to buck up their ideas, and failure to do so would lead to disciplinary action, such as formal warnings, verbal and written - and gradually if it continued over time, it COULD eventually lead to dismissal, but it's a long drawn out process, and you cannot just sack someone so easily like that. They'd string your arse up in court.

Oh there are real grounds to sack Gerrard.

1) He's not pulling his weight and is sulking.
2) He isn't acting like a proper captain - Though the way to act against it is to strip him of his captaincy you'd say.
3) His performances has been below par and not befittling of a first team place

In short, put him on the bench, see how it goes and how he reacts. If not, sack him from the squad and eventually put him on the transfer list. Rafa needs to address those issues but it's perefectly legal.

Paul Ince was told not to bother ever turning up when Rafa took charge. And remember when Murphy was sacked too? Nowt wrong with that.

[Harv]

Paul Ince was still at Liverpool when Rafa took over???

[Guest]

Paul Ince was still at Liverpool when Rafa took over???

No actually, I think that was when Houllier started.

[Fivex]

Personally, first and foremost a fullback should be able to defend and I'm afraid I don't think Johnson is very good defensively - he generally makes a couple of clangers a match and I'd prefer zero .

Show me a player who doesn't make mistakes

He's top draw mate and gives everyone, especially the crowd a lift when he plays. Can't believe you'd sell him for £10m rather than keep him - even if it's for the RW slot - we'd be short of players there anyway after selling that lot!

[Darkon]

Selling a whole team will bring us nowhere but backwards and it would take several season to get a new one to play together.

It has never been a good solution to buy a whole new team as it will not produce the results and play you want aka. Real madrid

[red g]

Selling a whole team will bring us nowhere but backwards and it would take several season to get a new one to play together.It has never been a good solution to buy a whole new team as it will not produce the results and play you want aka. Real madrid

well its taken this lot 5 seasons and it seems they cant play together.......

[PTP]

****ing hell rich - that post has made me more depressed

We have no money - you want to sell the half a dozen decent players we still have and then watch the £170m disappear to pay of some debt, and a new manager given about £50m to bring in average recruitments to rebuild the squad from scratch **** that.

Keep

Reina
Johnson
Carragher
Agger
Mascherano
Gerrard
Torres

At all costs - everyone else can be put up for sale -
cavalieri
skrtel
insua
aquilani
lucas
riera
kuyt
benayoun
babel
degen
plessis
el zhar
maxi
aurelio


those who don't go, can stay as squad players - new manager comes in, and then he has a pretty good 'core' of players to start with and just needs to add a left back, a couple of wingers and a striker too give us a top starting XI - with the rest of the squad being made up of either youngsters being promoted, the odd few we decide to keep as squad players (say ngog, lucas) or a couple of random bargain gambles ala this jovanovic dude.

[Darkon]

well its taken this lot 5 seasons and it seems they cant play together.......

And that's considering it has been a gradual change with some continuity in the playing staff. Played well last season, just ****ed up this one for some god knows what reason.

But drastic solutions never helps it is only done out of desperation and that is never a situation to make a choice under.

[Craig_H]

Oh there are real grounds to sack Gerrard.

1) He's not pulling his weight and is sulking.
2) He isn't acting like a proper captain - Though the way to act against it is to strip him of his captaincy you'd say.
3) His performances has been below par and not befittling of a first team place

In short, put him on the bench, see how it goes and how he reacts. If not, sack him from the squad and eventually put him on the transfer list. Rafa needs to address those issues but it's perefectly legal.

Paul Ince was told not to bother ever turning up when Rafa took charge. And remember when Murphy was sacked too? Nowt wrong with that.

You're not listening as usual.

It's not about what YOU think is grounds to 'sack' someone. It's about UK employment law. There are processes that have to be used.

Telling someone not to bother turning up isnt 'sacking' them, it's suspending them on full pay. Murphy wasnt 'sacked', he was sold.

Gerrard could have his contract terminated and be released - that's not sacking either, because they'd have to pay a huge wedge to him, to terminate his contract, which is legally binding. The law tends to hold up in court, a little bit more than a random fella's opinion.

Now you're saying about putting him on the bench and then transfer listing him. That's obviously an option, if the manager was silly enough to do it. But even then, it's not 'sacking' him.

[Guest]

You're not listening as usual.

It's not about what YOU think is grounds to 'sack' someone. It's about UK employment law. There are processes that have to be used.

Telling someone not to bother turning up isnt 'sacking' them, it's suspending them on full pay. Murphy wasnt 'sacked', he was sold.

Gerrard could have his contract terminated and be released - that's not sacking either, because they'd have to pay a huge wedge to him, to terminate his contract, which is legally binding. The law tends to hold up in court, a little bit more than a random fella's opinion.

Now you're saying about putting him on the bench and then transfer listing him. That's obviously an option, if the manager was silly enough to do it. But even then, it's not 'sacking' him.

Sacked, sold, semantics.

You know what I mean but you want to be smarter.

[Rich]

Selling a whole team will bring us nowhere but backwards and it would take several season to get a new one to play together.

It has never been a good solution to buy a whole new team as it will not produce the results and play you want aka. Real madrid

You mean Real Madrid that sit at the top of their league?!

My post was extreme but my point is that we have a serious amount of cash locked up in our squad - so to say we couldn't make a few drastic changes because of a lack of money is wide of the mark in my humble opinion.

And re: Johnson. I admit I don't particularly rate him, he's flash going forward but makes far too many mistakes in defence for me.

[Craig_H]

Sacked, sold, semantics.

You know what I mean but you want to be smarter.

No i didnt know what you meant, because i take words at their actual meanings, i dont assume the poster has changed the definition of the word to something else and used it with it's apparent new meaning.

[cream]

****ing hell rich - that post has made me more depressed

We have no money - you want to sell the half a dozen decent players we still have and then watch the £170m disappear to pay of some debt, and a new manager given about £50m to bring in average recruitments to rebuild the squad from scratch **** that.

Keep

Reina
Johnson
Carragher
Agger
Mascherano
Gerrard
Torres

At all costs - everyone else can be put up for sale -
cavalieri
skrtel
insua
aquilani
lucas
riera
kuyt
benayoun
babel
degen
plessis
el zhar
maxi
aurelio


those who don't go, can stay as squad players - new manager comes in, and then he has a pretty good 'core' of players to start with and just needs to add a left back, a couple of wingers and a striker too give us a top starting XI - with the rest of the squad being made up of either youngsters being promoted, the odd few we decide to keep as squad players (say ngog, lucas) or a couple of random bargain gambles ala this jovanovic dude.

Thats absolutely spot-on.