Torres: selling Alonso & Arbeloa ruined our season

[Vermilion]

Still amazes me people were so blasse about the effects of losing Alonso.

One of the few occasions I was right, but I wish it was one of the many occasions I'd been wrong.

Saying that..on the field of play last season we did well when he didn't play, so i just can't put this season all down to Xabi going, i think it's a mix of so many things that have brought us to this spot, the general glum feeling and dark cloud hanging over us also plays a part.

But i think it's also his influence in the dressing room that we miss...that applies big time to Sami too..a pair of very level heads.

Oh...and i don't belive Xabi would have stayed whatever, once madrid came calling, so i apportion no blame to the manager like some, if Xabi had truly wanted to stay he would have, and i also belive Rafa wouldn't have minded one bit., as he knew he'd see none of the money anyway.

Good to hear Torres talking about us bouncing back next season though eh...that's the most positive thing i've heard for ages.

Just hope he meant with him playing for us.

[Kenneth]

Saying that..on the field of play last season we did well when he didn't play, so i just can't put this season all down to Xabi going, i think it's a mix of so many things that have brought us to this spot, the general glum feeling and dark cloud hanging over us also plays a part.

But i think it's also his influence in the dressing room that we miss...that applies big time to Sami too..a pair of very level heads.

Oh...and i don't belive Xabi would have stayed whatever, once madrid came calling, so i apportion no blame to the manager like some, if Xabi had truly wanted to stay he would have, and i also belive Rafa wouldn't have minded one bit., as he knew he'd see none of the money anyway.

Good to hear Torres talking about us bouncing back next season though eh...that's the most positive thing i've heard for ages.

Just hope he meant with him playing for us.

[Taxi]

Sorry but complete bollocks - Rafa got £30m for Alonso cash up front and didn't see a penny of it to spend.
It's obvious to even Stevie bloody Wonder that Rafa was told to generate a certain amount of money through player sales to go towards bringing down the debt.

What about Aqualani? Thats up to £15m come the summer and people are quick to point out that that was in installments but was the money from Alonso in installments also? I'm not making a point here as I don't know if RM paid us in installments or not, but from a lot of comments on here there seems to be the belief that we pay for all our transfers in installments, we recieve payments in full, we look at Rafa's transfer in net but compare to other clubs gross.

If we did recieve one payment from RM surely half of it was set aside for Aqualani and not all used to pay off debt? Still not great mind but even so, it still doesn't excuse the fact that we're just 5 points ahead of Everton who have scored more points than us this year. I can excuse us losing ground on the top 2 but not in finding ourselves this close to a club with far fewer resources than us, far fewer world class players and arguably a team which has suffered more injuries to first team players than us.

There are two arguments here which should not be clouded and each should be accpeted. Firstly, we have to accept that our finacial situation has instigated our fall (possibly from the big four) but secondly, with our resources we should also accept that we should still be doing far better than we are. Our away record (4 wins this season) is whats ****ed us up the most (in terms of CL qualification) and this is not all down to having to sell Alonso and having to suffer the terrible problem of having to make do with a cheapo £17m replacement (who just happened to be injured when we purchased him).

[dww]

Hyypia was probably the biggest loss of the trio mentioned, would have helped to sort out our defensive problems earlier in the season.

I love Sami mate- he was an absolute legend, but Xabi was still in his prime whereas Sami was backup by that stage. Xabi was a massive, massive loss as many of us predicted.

I think all three were a big loss. Xabi and Sami were big losses as much from a psychological point of view as from a playing point of view. A lot of the problems this season have come from people looking too much to Gerrard and Torres to turn things round where players like Sami and Alonso in the group are stronger mentally and you need people like that around to help the squad come through the tough times.

I think Arbeloa was more of a loss in terms of the fact that we had no alternative experienced, defensive fullbacks. Trying to change too much at one time early in the season cost us and having a dependable utility defender capable of moving the ball safely into midfield would really have helped. He would have taken the pressure off both Insua and Johnson and in my view would also have helped Lucas and Mascherano in the middle play higher up the pitch more often.

[Lecter]

He added: ‘We were so far off the top of the table so quickly. That killed us psychologically and has stopped us changing the situation.’

This is the most telling part of the interview in my mind and in my mind this has affected a number of our better players this season

Only Reina & Mascherano can come out of this season with their heads held high as they are the only 2 consistant performers and those who have always pulled their tripe out no matter what

The rest can go **** themselves as far as I am concerned, they (including Torres & particularly Gerrard) need to take a long hard look at themselves

[dww]

This is the most telling part of the interview in my mind and in my mind this has affected a number of our better players this season

Only Reina & Mascherano can come out of this season with their heads held high as they are the only 2 consistant performers and those who have always pulled their tripe out no matter what

The rest can go **** themselves as far as I am concerned, they (including Torres & particularly Gerrard) need to take a long hard look at themselves

I generally agree but at the start of the season Mascherano was as much a part of the problem as anyone. All things considered that was understandable and the way he came back from it was admirable but we needed him to stand up as a leader early in the season and he didn't.

I also think Lucas deserves credit - whether you think he is good enough or not.

I really hope that the one thing to come out of this season is personal growth for a number of our players.

[The Reverend]

The majority of the squad have been piss poor this season but the responsibility for motivating and getting the best out of the players rests with the manager. If we haven't seen the best of the likes of Gerrard and others then maybe its Rafa who should be taking a long hard look at himself. I'm not saying the players are blameless here, far from it, but its the manager's job to instill self-belief in the squad.

[Roboklopp]

I think all three were a big loss. Xabi and Sami were big losses as much from a psychological point of view as from a playing point of view. A lot of the problems this season have come from people looking too much to Gerrard and Torres to turn things round where players like Sami and Alonso in the group are stronger mentally and you need people like that around to help the squad come through the tough times.

I think Arbeloa was more of a loss in terms of the fact that we had no alternative experienced, defensive fullbacks. Trying to change too much at one time early in the season cost us and having a dependable utility defender capable of moving the ball safely into midfield would really have helped. He would have taken the pressure off both Insua and Johnson and in my view would also have helped Lucas and Mascherano in the middle play higher up the pitch more often.

Cant argue with that at all.

For the record, I really dont think Rafa is blameless in his decisions this season & the previous transfer window. He certainly hasnt covered himself in glory.

However, I do feel he was somewhat backed into a corner by the owners on transfers. Pretty happy with Johnson all things considered (Pompey's situation etc.) & it seems to me Rafa lost the option to buy a support striker to replace Keane, but the purchase of Aqualani seems a real clanger. I've not written him off yet, but I'd be pretty surprised to see him turn my opinion around.

The last 2 summers have been a massive disappointment transfer-wise & Rafa must shoulder a lot of the blame for that, even if I blame the owners more so.

[dww]

The majority of the squad have been piss poor this season but the responsibility for motivating and getting the best out of the players rests with the manager. If we haven't seen the best of the likes of Gerrard and others then maybe its Rafa who should be taking a long hard look at himself. I'm not saying the players are blameless here, far from it, but its the manager's job to instill self-belief in the squad.

I take that point and I think he is culpable to a degree. I think that the fault though is at the recruitment level - we lost leaders and calm heads which is what Rafa needs for his techniques to work in terms of man management. The balance of the squad is wrong to my mind in terms of the personalities as much as the types of player. I think the problem is though that it is hard to get players with the right ability and mentality to replace key figures like Alonso and Hyypia when finances are restricted.

[Lecter]

I generally agree but at the start of the season Mascherano was as much a part of the problem as anyone. All things considered that was understandable and the way he came back from it was admirable but we needed him to stand up as a leader early in the season and he didn't.

I also think Lucas deserves credit - whether you think he is good enough or not.

I really hope that the one thing to come out of this season is personal growth for a number of our players.

Mascherano snapped out of it quicker than any of the others (bar Reina imo). He sulked for the first half dozen games but then slowly started to pick up

Lucas has improved no end this season but imo hes nothing more than a squad player

[The Reverend]

I take that point and I think he is culpable to a degree. I think that the fault though is at the recruitment level - we lost leaders and calm heads which is what Rafa needs for his techniques to work in terms of man management. The balance of the squad is wrong to my mind in terms of the personalities as much as the types of player. I think the problem is though that it is hard to get players with the right ability and mentality to replace key figures like Alonso and Hyypia when finances are restricted.

There's no doubt that recruitment is a key issue here but in that respect I think Rafa hasn't used the available funds too wisely over the last couple of seasons. £20 million for Keane was far too much, regardless of whether he was supposed to fit into a system with Barry. Likewise, Aquilani and Johnson were both overpriced. Where Rafa has struggled is picking up quality players in the 6 -10 million pound bracket, which is something that any subsequent Liverpool manager will have to do due to the lack of funds.

[Lecter]

The majority of the squad have been piss poor this season but the responsibility for motivating and getting the best out of the players rests with the manager. If we haven't seen the best of the likes of Gerrard and others then maybe its Rafa who should be taking a long hard look at himself. I'm not saying the players are blameless here, far from it, but its the manager's job to instill self-belief in the squad.

You see this is where is disagree

Its as much down to the players as it is down to Rafa

The players have to respond themselves a manager can only sit there and say things so many times

I have lost all respect for Gerrard this season hes sulked and sulked and sulked and its probably only in the last 3 or 4 games were we have seen any improvement from him and at a guess that is only because hes seen Torres start to fire

[Roboklopp]

This is the most telling part of the interview in my mind and in my mind this has affected a number of our better players this season

Only Reina & Mascherano can come out of this season with their heads held high as they are the only 2 consistant performers and those who have always pulled their tripe out no matter what

The rest can go **** themselves as far as I am concerned, they (including Torres & particularly Gerrard) need to take a long hard look at themselves

Agree with most of this, albeit with DWWWWW's caveat to Masher.

I've found Torres' behaviour extremely frustrating this season & no longer view him as some sort of football god, but I do have some sympathy for his plight. Endlessly, he is left alone in the oposition half against 6 players & expected to perform miracles. That is Rafa & the players' faults to a greater or lesser degree. It is exacerbated by the fact that referees seem to let defenders put in UFC-style challenges on him time & time again, which is inexecusable- as well a pretty much unique. (Imagine if Ronaldo had suffered the same treatment FFS).

I share SG's frustration about the lack of quality in the squad, but his behaviour & performances this season have been pretty disgraceful. He has been a woeful captain.

[Roboklopp]

Mascherano snapped out of it quicker than any of the others (bar Reina imo). He sulked for the first half dozen games but then slowly started to pick up

Lucas has improved no end this season but imo hes nothing more than a squad player

Aye, Lucas has doubled in value from the £5m we spent, but in Alonso we lost a player that had tripled from the £10m outlay.

[dww]

There's no doubt that recruitment is a key issue here but in that respect I think Rafa hasn't used the available funds too wisely over the last couple of seasons. £20 million for Keane was far too much, regardless of whether he was supposed to fit into a system with Barry. Likewise, Aquilani and Johnson were both overpriced. Where Rafa has struggled is picking up quality players in the 6 -10 million pound bracket, which is something that any subsequent Liverpool manager will have to do due to the lack of funds.

I think that all those deals are compromises of one sort or another - I don't think Rafa would have bought Keane in the circumstances as the deal was pushed through by Parry, Johnson was a gamble but it was a way of getting the money Pompey owed us and I'm not sure about Aquilani - it depends on how exact the details we have of the deal are.

I'm not sure anyone has picked up many more quality players in those price brackets of late. Especially with the pound weakening. I think we got decent at least value from Agger, Alonso, Arebloa, Benayoun, Lucas, Ngog, Bellamy and a number of other players. I think the problem has been that we have needed to be replacing key players on the cheap which is always going to be a gamble. I suppose it could be argued that we could have pooled the Johnson and Aquilani money to get a replacement for Alonso but we would still have needed a right back and would have had to practically write off the Crouch money from Portsmouth.