Post-Chelski-mortem.

[Jack D Rips]

Good. He can take Stevie Me with him. It's astonishing at times that he's the club captain.

Jack D Rips doesn't like this post.

[SERVO2]

That's not the point i'm making though Rach.

Generally speaking, Rafa (judging by the decisions he makes), thinks it's better to bring on defenders or defensive midfielders when we need a goal, rather than attacking players. Or if he brings on an attacking player, he takes another one off - so he doesnt really increase the attacking impetus.

My question is why would his footballing philosophies, that dictate these kind of subs, suddenly change, if he had money to spend?

Granted, he'd probably bring on a higher calibre of defender than Degen, because he'd have been able to afford one. But his basic footballing beliefs obviously include the notion that, to increase the chances of scoring a much needed goal, you should bring on a right back rather than a forward or a creative attacking midfielder.

I dont see why a change of owners would change his fundamental footballing philosophies.

Where you saying this when we were top scorers in the prem last season???
It's the same manager - different squad & yes he helped assemble that squad but he didn't get to do what he wanted - we weren't able to kick on... WHY THE YANKS.
(to short hand many arguments I loved Alonso he wasn't great we tried to sell him, he had a great season & was a bit upset we tried to sell him & wanted to pay less tax HE WANTED TO GO,
Aqualani - the independant Doc's said he should be fit by August or there about from memory (if I was Lpool I'd sue!!) as we had **** all money we bought him at a low down payment the rest as add on's - he tooks months more than was expected seems to be a bit delicate tempermant wise (but then was crocked for a long time) my view is he was wrapped in cotton wool so A he wasn't blamed, B he would be fully fit next season. From what I've seen when he's good he' good.
Keane - Rafa wanted Barry & Keane & doesn't appear to have thought one without the other worked.. no Barry Keane was rubbish... was rubbish back at Spurs... now onloan at Celtic.
Gerrard - has never had a season with so many injuries & such poor form.
Torres - see above... Have I missed anything???)

All of that aside we are Liverpool... best fans in the world right? We have the Liverpool way right? We set ourselves apart from "normal" football fans. The owners don't get it... Rafa does... who should we back & give him one more season Rafa.
I don't give a flying **** that the decsion is based on emotion rather than possibly a more sensible idea - it's the right thing to do & at this moment Rafa deserves the right thing.


Cheers

Rach

[Craig_H]

Where you saying this when we were top scorers in the prem last season???
It's the same manager - different squad & yes he helped assemble that squad but he didn't get to do what he wanted - we weren't able to kick on... WHY THE YANKS.
(to short hand many arguments I loved Alonso he wasn't great we tried to sell him, he had a great season & was a bit upset we tried to sell him & wanted to pay less tax HE WANTED TO GO,
Aqualani - the independant Doc's said he should be fit by August or there about from memory (if I was Lpool I'd sue!!) as we had **** all money we bought him at a low down payment the rest as add on's - he tooks months more than was expected seems to be a bit delicate tempermant wise (but then was crocked for a long time) my view is he was wrapped in cotton wool so A he wasn't blamed, B he would be fully fit next season. From what I've seen when he's good he' good.
Keane - Rafa wanted Barry & Keane & doesn't appear to have thought one without the other worked.. no Barry Keane was rubbish... was rubbish back at Spurs... now onloan at Celtic.
Gerrard - has never had a season with so many injuries & such poor form.
Torres - see above... Have I missed anything???)

All of that aside we are Liverpool... best fans in the world right? We have the Liverpool way right? We set ourselves apart from "normal" football fans. The owners don't get it... Rafa does... who should we back & give him one more season Rafa.
I don't give a flying **** that the decsion is based on emotion rather than possibly a more sensible idea - it's the right thing to do & at this moment Rafa deserves the right thing.


Cheers

Rach

This could go on all night and i'm sure neither of us can be arsed, so i'll just answer this one and leave it at that for the evening.

Last season was brilliant, but it's of no consequence to now. If i were achieving fantastic results at work for 2009 but was now producing ****e results, i'd be pulled up on it and no reference to the previous year would really matter. It's about the present. Last season doesnt stop us being 7th now.

Alonso wanted to go, but so did Cristiano Ronaldo the summer before last. What's the difference? United kept him and he played a massive part in winning them the title. Alonso could have been kept until it was best for the club to let him go. We could've used that extra time to keep a closer eye on Aquilani's fitness, rather than rush into signing him as a replacement. Alonso would've had to knuckle down and get on with it, if he wanted to go to the World Cup, which he obviously does.

I'm really not sure what to do with the 'Keane could only be good if we had got Barry too' type of argument. It just sounds bizarre to me, so i'll leave it be. Rafa did well to get rid of Keane at minimal loss though.

I'm not arguing about Gerrard and Torres, but Arsenal had horrific injuries all season, yet managed a comfortable top four finish.

To be honest, i find the 'most knowledgable fans in the world' type of thing all a little bit self praising and a little bit cringeworthy. I dont think we're particularly that much different to most other sets of fans as a collective, and i base that on having gone and seen them all. But each to their own.

Clearly you feel Rafa deserves another year and (correct me if i am wrong), you think he'll turn things around if given that year. Much as i wish i thought the same, unfortunately i dont. I see us staying at the same level (at best) if not dropping further, and as a fan like yourself, i want us to succeed, so if my instinct is that not making the change will damage us, i cant bring myself to want something that IMO will do us further damage. If that makes sense. That is my reason for wanting a new manager and it has nothing to do with my view of Rafa as a person, because i am very fond of him and would like nothing more than to be proved wrong in my views.

[EwarWoo]

Clearly you feel Rafa deserves another year and (correct me if i am wrong), you think he'll turn things around if given that year. Much as i wish i thought the same, unfortunately i dont. I see us staying at the same level (at best) if not dropping further, and as a fan like yourself, i want us to succeed, so if my instinct is that not making the change will damage us, i cant bring myself to want something that IMO will do us further damage. If that makes sense. That is my reason for wanting a new manager and it has nothing to do with my view of Rafa as a person, because i am very fond of him and would like nothing more than to be proved wrong in my views.

[SERVO2]

This could go on all night and i'm sure neither of us can be arsed, so i'll just answer this one and leave it at that for the evening.

Tell you what I'll just reply & then we can leave it for this evening...

Last season was brilliant, but it's of no consequence to now. If i were achieving fantastic results at work for 2009 but was now producing ****e results, i'd be pulled up on it and no reference to the previous year would really matter. It's about the present. Last season doesnt stop us being 7th now.

Agree it is of no consequence to now but does show he can do it - but I would not sack someone for ONE bad period of performance... 2 or 3 I wont argue but as a manager myself for one bad period you start to look at the mitigating circumstances for good employees

Alonso wanted to go, but so did Cristiano Ronaldo the summer before last. What's the difference? United kept him and he played a massive part in winning them the title. Alonso could have been kept until it was best for the club to let him go. We could've used that extra time to keep a closer eye on Aquilani's fitness, rather than rush into signing him as a replacement. Alonso would've had to knuckle down and get on with it, if he wanted to go to the World Cup, which he obviously does.

If only life was so simple... different players different situations - where did the Alsono money go to??? We got the highest fee ever the 2 seasons before we sold him Alonso was medicore - I don't see him setting the world on fire at Real

I'm really not sure what to do with the 'Keane could only be good if we had got Barry too' type of argument. It just sounds bizarre to me, so i'll leave it be. Rafa did well to get rid of Keane at minimal loss though.

Ok I'll repeat what I said Keane didn't work for us... was given a chance & failed and then didn't work for Spurs & is now onloan at Celtic - prem proven which is what we all wanted but didn't work - at least we got money back.

I'm not arguing about Gerrard and Torres, but Arsenal had horrific injuries all season, yet managed a comfortable top four finish.

And Wenger has ran than club from the top down & they have profited from their youth players

To be honest, i find the 'most knowledgable fans in the world' type of thing all a little bit self praising and a little bit cringeworthy. I dont think we're particularly that much different to most other sets of fans as a collective, and i base that on having gone and seen them all. But each to their own.

I asked the question - I didn't say we where the most knowledgeable fans... some people on here leave alot to be desired - I don't just mean coz I disagree with you over Rafa.

Clearly you feel Rafa deserves another year and (correct me if i am wrong), you think he'll turn things around if given that year.

Yes I do - and if he doesn't at least we will know & he had the chance.
Much as i wish i thought the same, unfortunately i dont. I see us staying at the same level (at best) if not dropping further, and as a fan like yourself, i want us to succeed, so if my instinct is that not making the change will damage us, i cant bring myself to want something that IMO will do us further damage. If that makes sense. That is my reason for wanting a new manager and it has nothing to do with my view of Rafa as a person, because i am very fond of him and would like nothing more than to be proved wrong in my views.

I find it very difficult that the owner situation & the budget etc etc haven't been mentioned by yourself but hey ho as I'm sure you think people see what they want to see in the situation aswell.

Cheers

Rach

[Guest]

Well Craig you are not going to change your mind neither will I and the majority of the fans who still support him. Let's look forward to next season now, I'm sick of talking about this one.

[Craig_H]

I find it very difficult that the owner situation & the budget etc etc haven't been mentioned by yourself but hey ho as I'm sure you think people see what they want to see in the situation aswell.

Cheers

Rach

Not wishing to go on and on, but i didnt want it to seem as though i was deliberately ignoring these issues, so...

I totally agree that the owners have ****ed him over and it's not fair on him. That doesnt change the fact that i am still convinced that our squad/team is good enough, as it is, to be finishing in the top four. We have more world class players than any other PL team IMO and another 4 superb players after that. I dont think our squad has been used to it's best capability and this is still the case, despite the general ****wittery of the owners.

Re the budget, whilst it was a zero net spend, following player sales, Rafa did have over £30m to spend on replacements and i think that while Aquilani cannot be judged yet until he's fit and adjusted, his capture has left us badly short, at least for the period of time until he's settled - the void that was left behind, was a massive one and not one we could have realistically got by without filling IMO. So in that respect at least, it was a questionable move.

That's hopefully addressed my views on the two areas of owner conduct and budget, i wasnt seeking to avoid them.

[Mostar]

Not wishing to go on and on, but i didnt want it to seem as though i was deliberately ignoring these issues, so...

I totally agree that the owners have ****ed him over and it's not fair on him. That doesnt change the fact that i am still convinced that our squad/team is good enough, as it is, to be finishing in the top four. We have more world class players than any other PL team IMO and another 4 superb players after that. I dont think our squad has been used to it's best capability and this is still the case, despite the general ****wittery of the owners.

Re the budget, whilst it was a zero net spend, following player sales, Rafa did have over £30m to spend on replacements and i think that while Aquilani cannot be judged yet until he's fit and adjusted, his capture has left us badly short, at least for the period of time until he's settled - the void that was left behind, was a massive one and not one we could have realistically got by without filling IMO. So in that respect at least, it was a questionable move.

That's hopefully addressed my views on the two areas of owner conduct and budget, i wasnt seeking to avoid them.

[-V-]

Post-Match threads get funnier everyweek. We get beat, everyone logs on to discuss how crap we performed and how poor our manager is performing while PeteBest and Mattshark are quickly on duty to tell us how great we were LAST season and how Rafa is a tactical genius.

[EwarWoo]

Post-Match threads get funnier everyweek. We get beat, everyone logs on to discuss how crap we performed and how poor our manager is performing while PeteBest and Mattshark are quickly on duty to tell us how great we were LAST season and how Rafa is a tactical genius.

To be fair most discussing how poorly he's performing were logging on to defend him when all the WUMs were in here having a go over every single loss last season.

I think we're just here to discuss really, just so happens unfortunately the main thing to discuss at the moment is negative.

[Vermilion]

Post-Match threads get funnier everyweek. We get beat, everyone logs on to discuss how crap we performed and how poor our manager is performing while PeteBest and Mattshark are quickly on duty to tell us how great we were LAST season and how Rafa is a tactical genius.

Well we must make our minds up on this...because those who want Rafa gone are always on here saying 'you can't say anything negative on these boards about Rafa and everyone shoots you down', but your saying it's the other way round..it's just Matt and Pete that are defending Rafa and everyone else is against them ? We seem to be getting a touch here imo.

Which is it...the Rafa gone camp get shouted down and insulted...or Pete and Matt get shouted down and insulted.....oh **** it i give up..

To all those who are upset about yesterdays result...have a think how you would feel today if we'd won..with the scum sitting top of the league and utd fans coming up to them to give em a pat on the back and tell them suddenly what a great club we are, i'd rather take their insults and jibes...atleast it's honest.

[kev776]

I feel very torn when trying to sum up Rafa's position.

A part of me really wants him to succeed, he has been working with one hand tied behind his back (or so we are led to believe by one side of the camp) and if this is true it is understandable that when shopping in the bargain basement,that is exactly what you get. He is a genuine nice guy and he feels deeply for the club so I want him to succeed.

But then his tactics and (in my opinion), over cautiousness kicks in during games and I dont mean against the other top teams (it is understandable that we play 2 defensive midfielders against some) but against the lower teams he should be going for the throat.

Fergie nicks many games 1-0 because he sends out his teams to win, try and create chances and hope one goes in, this is why they are so far ahead of us. Their team, man for man is no better than ours, the difference is they expect to win, we often go out on the pitch "not to lose" How often have we scored, sat back and defended that goal and conceded late in the game, instead of pushing on and going for another goal.

I fear that if Rafa is given a big kitty, he will buy players to carry on doing exactly that, it is his nature as a coach. It is his over reliance on midfield workhorses at the detriment of our few flair players, that baffles me. Always Masher/Lucas over Benny/Aquaman. Im sure some of our defeats were down to this fear of expression.

As soon as Torres is out, it is panic time, stop the opposition and dont lose. Why not play Aquaman/Benny/Maxi/Riera and just tell them to go out and play football, the chances will flow if they would be allowed to express themselves.

When Kenny was manager he was once asked before a game as to how the team was going to play, he replied the team just goes out and plays, so he had no idea.

A bit of freedom of thought on the pitch would work wonders.

[Vermilion]

I feel very torn when trying to sum up Rafa's position.

A part of me really wants him to succeed, he has been working with one hand tied behind his back (or so we are led to believe by one side of the camp) and if this is true it is understandable that when shopping in the bargain basement,that is exactly what you get. He is a genuine nice guy and he feels deeply for the club so I want him to succeed.

But then his tactics and in my opinion, over cautiousnes kicks in during games and I dont mean against the other top teams (it is understandable that we play 3 defensive midfielders against some) but against the lower teams he should be going for the throat.

Fergie nicks many games 1-0 because he sends out his teams to win, try and create chances and hope one goes in, this is why they are so far ahead of us. Their team, man for man is no better than ours, the difference is they expect to win, we often go out on the pitch "not to lose" How often have we scored, sat back and defended that goal and conceded late in the game, instead of pushing on and going for another goal.

I fear that if Rafa is given a big kitty, he will buy players to carry on doing exactly that, it is his nature as a coach. It is his over relience on midfield workhorses at the detriment of our few flair players that baffle me. Always Masher/Lucas over Benny/Aquaman. Im sure some of our defeats were down to this fear of expression.

As soon as Torres is out, it is panic time, stop the opposition and dont lose. Why not play Aquaman/Benny/Maxi/Riera and just tell them to go out and play football, the chances will flow if they would be allowed to express themselves.

When Kenny was manager he was once asked before a game as to how the team was going to play, he replied the team just goes out and plays, so he had no idea.

A bit of freedom of thought on the pitch would work wonders.

Agree with some, but it's very simplistic to say just send them out and let them play, and if Rafa said what Kenny did at the bottom of your post..he would be ridiculed by all. imo.

[kev776]

To be fair most discussing how poorly he's performing were logging on to defend him when all the WUMs were in here having a go over every single loss last season.

I think we're just here to discuss really, just so happens unfortunately the main thing to discuss at the moment is negative.

Your WUM comment has confused me, name and shame who you think is a WUM ?
Or is a WUM somebody with a different opinion to the masses?

[Exiled_red]

I avoided this place yesterday for the game and subsequent fall out. I didn't want to get involved in the whole Chelsea-Scum thing, so I'm just going to talk about the game.

Firstly the team, it was the team we had to play. We simply had no other real options. No doubt someone will say we should we could have played some of the kids, but it would be wrong to throw them in at the deep end for a game such as this.

We actually started well and had the better of it until the opening goal, which was an awful backpass by Gerrard, after this our heads went down and Chelsea's went up. we lost confidence and the tiredness from extra time in medweek came through. Add to this more injuries and we finished the game with only one of our first choice back 4 on the pitch (and he was out of position). It's not been a great season and to be honest I can't wait for it to be over.

The game confirmed we can't get 4th now, but in fairness it was lost before yesterday's game