I'm getting a bit worried

[Redspin]

Young, fairly experienced and played for Brazil are factors that should push the transfer fee up, that is true. And if we are looking for players to replace him using similar criteria it is true we would be paying at least 8 million.

However, on real terms replacing him wouldn't cost as much, given that he offers pretty much nothing.

He offered ten times what Gerrard did last season so should we sell our captain too?

[Exiled_red]

Maybe hodgson has indicated that he really doesnt rate a handful of players and insua and lucas were on that list.

I thought he had promised to give everyone a chance. Also he'll have seen very little of them he's only been in the job two weeks, and the players won't have been in pre-season training for all of that time. That's very quick to make a decision based on what he's see in his time in charge.

[barnes10]

I havent read any quotes from hodgson about these two no. must have missed that. what did he say?

all im suggesting is that maybe, given that they're first teamers, he's seen enough of their game over the last two seasons to decide they wont fit into his plans. maybe, maybe not.

of course he's going to say everyone is getting a chance. but the reality is that he has to sell to bolster his humble kitty so will have to sell someone wont he. given that these two he'll have had a better look at than others given the last couple of years, and the negotiations seem to be reasonably advanced, it may have his blessing.

[Mattshark]

I havent read any quotes from hodgson about these two no. must have missed that. what did he say?

all im suggesting is that maybe, given that they're first teamers, he's seen enough of their game over the last two seasons to decide they wont fit into his plans. maybe, maybe not.

of course he's going to say everyone is getting a chance. but the reality is that he has to sell to bolster his humble kitty so will have to sell someone wont he. given that these two he'll have had a better look at than others given the last couple of years, and the negotiations seem to be reasonably advanced, it may have his blessing.

Go and looking in the Insua and Lucas thread and you will see he says he has no say in the transfers.

[DannyMan2006]

Go and looking in the Insua and Lucas thread and you will see he says he has no say in the transfers.

If those two are so great I suspect Rafa will be bidding for them at their bargain prices.

[Exiled_red]

I havent read any quotes from hodgson about these two no. must have missed that. what did he say?

all im suggesting is that maybe, given that they're first teamers, he's seen enough of their game over the last two seasons to decide they wont fit into his plans. maybe, maybe not.

of course he's going to say everyone is getting a chance. but the reality is that he has to sell to bolster his humble kitty so will have to sell someone wont he. given that these two he'll have had a better look at than others given the last couple of years, and the negotiations seem to be reasonably advanced, it may have his blessing.

I can't find the link but presumably it's in one of the Hodgson threads, basically the usual stuff from a new manager everyone gets a chance type stuff.

Although there's some worrying suggestions that he doesn't have the power to stop the discussions that are going on between some players (Lucas and Insua possibly others) and other clubs

[Richey]

He offered ten times what Gerrard did last season so should we sell our captain too?

And on what criteria do you base this conclusion then?

Offered more goals? Well, no he didn't do that did he?
More assists maybe? Again, no. Not at all.

Gerrard wasn't at his best last season, that was fairly obvious, but he was still a hell of a lot better than Lucas and to suggest otherwise is just mental really

[RedReet]

And on what criteria do you base this conclusion then?

Offered more goals? Well, no he didn't do that did he?
More assists maybe? Again, no. Not at all.

Gerrard wasn't at his best last season, that was fairly obvious, but he was still a hell of a lot better than Lucas and to suggest otherwise is just mental really

Guess we're all mental then.

[Exiled_red]

I think these types of discussion (who had the better season) are pointless. Last season everyone (with perhaps the odd exception most notably Pepe) had poor seasons.

It's largely a confidence thing, if the players around you aren't on their game that affects you, you don't make the same runs, or play the same balls, or get into the same positions. If Gerrard had had a better season maybe so might Lucas, likewise if Lucas had a had a better season so might Gerrard. We need the players to put that behind them build up their confidence and get them out there playing.

[RedReet]

I think these types of discussion (who had the better season) are pointless. Last season everyone (with perhaps the odd exception most notably Pepe) had poor seasons.

It's largely a confidence thing, if the players around you aren't on their game that affects you, you don't make the same runs, or play the same balls, or get into the same positions. If Gerrard had had a better season maybe so might Lucas, likewise if Lucas had a had a better season so might Gerrard. We need the players to put that behind them build up their confidence and get them out there playing.

So it’s better just to say Lucas is crap blah blah blah, than argue he is good by showing stats (but they’re misleading) or reminding people that they voted for him in the MOTM threads and he was actually one of our most consistent performers last year.

Not having a go at you specifically but those that can say he’s crap because they say so, but dismiss any ideas that might actually prove otherwise.

[Reece]

So it’s better just to say Lucas is crap blah blah blah, than argue he is good by showing stats (but they’re misleading) or reminding people that they voted for him in the MOTM threads and he was actually one of our most consistent performers last year.

Not having a go at you specifically but those that can say he’s crap because they say so, but dismiss any ideas that might actually prove otherwise.

People only did that out of sympathy, apparently.

[Richey]

If the argument is about what a player offers then surely its fair to show stats that include goals and assists isn't it?

The man of the match results do put Lucas higher than Gerrard, but could any even small part of this be possibly down to the fact that BY HIS OWN STANDARDS Gerrard was poor? Noone expects anything of Lucas, yet people expect a lot of Gerrard.

[RedReet]

Not necessarily if you are comparing a DM with a forward.

Well personally I pick my MOTM based on what happens during a game, although I can’t speak for everyone else (something you seem pretty good at). And as far as ‘everyone’ expecting nothing of Lucas, this is also reflected in the polls as I know people that will still argue about his lack of contribution even when he was one of the better players.

[Exiled_red]

So it’s better just to say Lucas is crap blah blah blah, than argue he is good by showing stats (but they’re misleading) or reminding people that they voted for him in the MOTM threads and he was actually one of our most consistent performers last year.

Not having a go at you specifically but those that can say he’s crap because they say so, but dismiss any ideas that might actually prove otherwise.

I appreciate that that post wasn't just aimed at me.

I just think that last season isn't the appropriate level to judge people from in terms of X is better than Y etc. Most players played below their normal level last season, the extent to which is questionable admittedly. We can pick apart the season bit by bit: Did the strikers play badly because of the supply they were getting? or did the midfielders play badly because the strikers weren't making the runs? Both happened but what came first? etc...

Lucas has been getting alot of stick on here alot of it IMO because he isn't Xabi Alonso, alot of people have made the assumption (wrongly IMO) that all that had changed between last season and the season before was swapping Lucas for Alonso, and as such our poor season was largely due to Lucas' inability, which of course in nonsense. Lucas was one of our better players last season. Some will no doubt use this as a mark of how poor we were while others will see it as Lucas' personal improvement and believe that had the players around him not been so poor could have had an even better season. Personally I believe that Lucas showed enough last year to at least see what he can do this year, whether he gets it or not I believe may come down to non-footballing issues.

[Exiled_red]

If the argument is about what a player offers then surely its fair to show stats that include goals and assists isn't it?

The man of the match results do put Lucas higher than Gerrard, but could any even small part of this be possibly down to the fact that BY HIS OWN STANDARDS Gerrard was poor? Noone expects anything of Lucas, yet people expect a lot of Gerrard.

But in 08-09 Alonso didn't have a great number of goals or assists but was considered by many our player of the season. It's right that they are included but stats don't always give the whole picture...