Rafa - No Way Back?

[Shaggy]

Conversely, manure fans ran widespread KRAP campaigns (Keep Rafa At Pool) so we would never win number 19. And they kept it going for as long as possible because they were right.

Onwards and upwards. Roy won't win us number 19 either but he won't cost us a bomb NOT winning it.

The KRAP campaign was an absolute joke. I knew people involved with it and from their point of view it was one big piss take. They knew he was a threat, as were LFC under his management, so they stuck the boot in.

Here's a Manc, in response to the following statement:

He (Rafa) also turned that team from a team that won the CL to a team out of the CL and into 7th in the EPL.

What's your point? That he can win when someone else builds a team and he then comes in? He's truly fantastic. I look forward to him now destroying Inter.

Manc:

What can you say to someone who actually believes this?

Rafa won't destroy Inter. He might not equal what Mourinho did, but you're dreaming if you think he won't do well with that squad. All rhetoric aside, if you can't spot how much better Rafa is as a manager then Roy then there's simply no point in talking with you. And to suggest that Houllier built a team and Rafa came and won things just takes the cake. Either you suffer from poor memory or you're just enable to be honest about what happened.

I've never liked Rafa and I've made that abundantly clear when he was the dipper boss but those first few years what he was able to achieve with that team was nothing short of amazing. Yes, he never quite cracked the premiership, and he never quite measured alongside the very best in the world (Fergie). But the man gave teams a problem, and to suggest otherwise is just flat out ridiculous.

Roy has shown no sense that he knows how to handle that team. The tactics haven't been right for most of his games (right from the city game). The substitutions come late, he never seems to have a Plan B when things go pear shaped. Yes, people will say the team isn't great...but surely it's better then some of their results and play suggests.

Roys a good mid table manager...and no matter what you say, Liverpool and their fans will not judge him as that. They paid 6 million to get rid of a top coach because results weren't good one season. Can you honestly say that Roy has shown he can do a better job then Rafa did last year?

I certainly don't.

I loved the KRAP campaign and certainly had fun with it. But I was glad Rafa was fired...while he was around Liverpool were always going to be a dangerous side. Now that he's with Inter I can be more objective (still think he's a FSW though) about what he brought to the table. I was happy he left...his departure instantly weakened Liverpool, and while Roy far from being a **** manager, he has shown absolutely nothing to suggest he will be a threat to us (or I suspect any of the other top 4 teams).

Letting Rafa go was a catastrophic decision by the Liverpool board...especially since they were able to give Roy very little money to play with to reinforce the squad. The longer the current owners remain and more inept the decision to hire Roy will look.

I can't see Roy lasting more then a year and half. I think he would love to get that England job and can see him resigning if Liverpool don't finish better then 7th.

I'm not sure he will even get the England job now given his age and the fact he'll have damaged his reputation if he finishes below 7th, but I can honestly see that happening. Roy resigns. England overlook him, he ends up in Denmark or Sweden for a year or two and calls it a day.

He's always been a lovely man, but you look at his career and you can tell he's never made it at a top club. He just doesn't have enough about him to survive under the glaring spotlight that comes with that sort of job.
Well, Rafa certainly didn't help himself. His ego and propensity to politic made his position as manager untenable. Rafa gambled that the owners would **** off sharpish and the new lot would give him the cheque book and the keys to the castle. The gamble didn't pay off and his comments, demands and promises (finishing 4th) came back to bite him in the ass. He had to go, otherwise the owners would have looked weak.

I understand getting rid of him from an administrative point of view. His presence was divisive and would have hurt the owners plan to wring the club of every cent. But from a footballing stand point, to get rid of a manager you just gave a huge contract to, and to then to turn around and give the position to someone like Roy.

That was just bad business.

And in response to this:

It's NOT an average squad. In Gerrard, Torres and Reina Liverpool have got three players a level above anything Spurs, Everton or Villa can boast and the supporting cast isn't that shabby.

Exactly. Far too much is made of Liverpool being average. They really aren't. They are definitely a top 6 side, and given Spuds are going to be competing in the CL and Villa look to have overachieved last year I would think a top 6 finish is a realistic target for Liverpool.

People round here talk about Liverpool being average and I frankly don't see it. Their backline is still pretty strong. Midfield is definitely better then most, and if Torres stays fit along with Ngog they have a very potent attack.

The team isn't average. They are underachieving badly and look rudderless at times but in terms of talent there is no way they are as bad as results suggest.

I actually see them going on a run in the next few weeks (they have got some pretty easy fixtures and i can see them getting 9/12 points)
There's no denying the results aren't good. Roy has to take some of the blame. People seem very quick to absolve him and lay the blame with Rafa, but Rafa has been gone months now. Roy was in charge when his teams came out and looked clueless. You can blame Rafa for a lot of things but at the end of the day every team sheet and tactical plan this season was overlooked by Roy.

Did anyone notice how poor Liverpool were defending against us from set pieces? That was man marking...funny how none of the papers made an issue of it huh?

Roy will get a generous press backing off him, but at the end of the day he knows he's got to stand up and take responsibility (and being a decent man he has done that). Can't keep blaming Rafa forever.

[S-RED]

I was thinking about this last night & i can't see a way back for Rafa.

I would love him to return, but even with new owners i just can't see it.

Rafa is in the past now.

Once we get new owners i think he'll want a top name (christ knows who??) & if we don't get new owners were ****ed anywy so let Roy see out his contract whilst watching Championship football.............

[dom9]

My statement has to be taken in context.

How could you 'partly blame' a manager? Either he is responsible for everything which is the main cause for our slump or he's not. But 'partly to blame'? How?

As someone else has said, we were the best team in Europe for 3 years and even at our worst last season, we were a whisker away from getting into another final. Why would you nit pick flaws in a managers' job when on the whole he was seen to be doing an excellent job?

We know nothing about the fact that he's lost the dressing room or other 'rumours' we've heard last season and players coming out this season telling us that the atmosphere is more positive doesn't show anything either. This all smacks of a PR exercise.

No manager is flawless. His job must be analysed as a whole over his whole tenure.

Fredo

What?

Of course he can be partly to blame. The players at his disposal did not play to their full potential last season. You can not dispute that. At times they looked like they did not want to play for the manager.

That is his fault.

It is also the players' fault.

What is not his fault is the financial contraints he had to operate under.

He is therefore partly to blame.

You can't simply say 'I'm convinced it's got nothing to do with the manager' and then say it has to be taken in context.

[Arn]

there shouldn't be a way back for rafa.
i agree that he was handicapped by the lack of trunsfer funds.
but his judgement in transfers was at least dubious. too many mistakes, especially for a club with little to spend anyway.
what's worse, he failed to get the best out of what he had at his disposal.

all that i could excuse. and yes, i also believe that the 'what if had money to spend on top drawer players' is a legitimate question.

but over the six years the former dignified man turned into moaner full of cheap excuses.
in my eyes his antics and his very public washing of dirty linen helped to deepen the negativity that surrounds us.
and it filtered down to the players and affected them. and he let it happen. on purpose or not, i don't know.
he was very much part of the problem. and has a bit of a track record of walking away when things don't go his way.

i understand that he's held in high regard given his euro heroics and the fa cup.
but for every right there were wrongs. for every high there were bitter lows. let's not forget that.
houllier was fantastic and turned sour. rafa was every bit the same in that respect.

You do know that the clubs need a manager that is prepared to do what Rafa did. Look like an idiot sometimes to get rid of our owners. A manager that is only prepared to do it his way and not the way our owners way.

We need a manager that is prepared to fight in our corner 100% like Rafa did. Rafa lost his job because he wanted what is best for the club and not what is best for our owners.

Right now Roy is only doing what is best for him and our owners and not what is best for the club.

Roy must be Gillett and Hicks dream manager. That is most probably why he got the job. He won't put up a fight against them. He will speak out against them sometimes but he won't put up a fight against them.

[BigChief]

If Rafa was backed properly when we most needed it we would already have won No.19, and probably No.20.

We would have won number 19 had Rafa not f*cked about with our attacking play in the season we were 15 points ahead of manure. The Stoke game and the defensive games thereafter were Rafa's undoing and my faith in him gone.

Do you reckon Roy with that lead and the players at his disposal would have won number 19 that season?

[dom9]

We would have won number 19 had Rafa not f*cked about with our attacking play in the season we were 15 points ahead of manure. The Stoke game and the defensive games thereafter were Rafa's undoing and my faith in him gone.

Do you reckon Roy with that lead and the players at his disposal would have won number 19 that season?

Do you reckon Roy could ever have got us into that position in the first place?

[Reece]

Do you reckon Roy with that lead and the players at his disposal would have won number 19 that season?

Do you think Roy could have got us into that position in the first place? I don't.

[Mattshark]

We would have won number 19 had Rafa not f*cked about with our attacking play in the season we were 15 points ahead of manure. The Stoke game and the defensive games thereafter were Rafa's undoing and my faith in him gone.

Do you reckon Roy with that lead and the players at his disposal would have won number 19 that season?

Or it could be that we didn't have the squad that could keep up for the whole year and at the same Manure went on a very long and good run.

Do you think Roy could have got us into that position in the first place? I don't.

Nor do I.

[Reece]

Do you reckon Roy could ever have got us into that position in the first place?

Do you think Roy could have got us into that position in the first place? I don't.

High 5 Dom!

[dom9]

High 5 Dom!

Back atcha!

Have 5!

[BigChief]

Or it could be that we didn't have the squad that could keep up for the whole year and at the same Manure went on a very long and good run.

That manure side were also under the Glazers. They could go on a good long marathon for all I care. When you're 15 points ahead the only way they would have won the league was if Rafa put on a waiters outfit and presented Ferguson the league title on a platter with a nice wine.

He stereotyped that ok.

[Mattshark]

That manure side were also under the Glazers. They could go on a good long marathon for all I care. When you're 15 points ahead the only way they would have won the league was if Rafa put on a waiters outfit and presented Ferguson the league title on a platter with a nice wine.

He stereotyped that ok.

So what if they under the Glazers? They had Ronaldo scoring 40 odd goals for them and they didn't concede for about 2 months.

That is nonsense, 1 dimensional and ignorant. All you have done is look at one factor.

And you go at Rafa there puts on a par with scum fans.

[Arn]

We would have won number 19 had Rafa not f*cked about with our attacking play in the season we were 15 points ahead of manure. The Stoke game and the defensive games thereafter were Rafa's undoing and my faith in him gone.

Do you reckon Roy with that lead and the players at his disposal would have won number 19 that season?

We completely dominated in those "defensive" games. Created chance after chance after chance. Rafa couldn't put the ball in the net himself, could he?

Sometimes you simply just don't score even if the team creates a lot of chances. The teams parked the bus against us because they feared us. That was the only way they could play against us. If they had played in a different way then we would have destroyed them. Even Man U, Chelsea and Arsenal parked the bus against us at Anfield.

[BigChief]

Fair enough Arn. I do remember lots of missed chances, but also some bizarre selections and substitutions. I'm afraid this is where I'll have to go away for a few days and do my 'investigations' before having a suitable reply.

[fred_plasticine]

You do know that the clubs need a manager that is prepared to do what Rafa did. Look like an idiot sometimes to get rid of our owners. A manager that is only prepared to do it his way and not the way our owners way.

We need a manager that is prepared to fight in our corner 100% like Rafa did. Rafa lost his job because he wanted what is best for the club and not what is best for our owners.

Right now Roy is only doing what is best for him and our owners and not what is best for the club.

Roy must be Gillett and Hicks dream manager. That is most probably why he got the job. He won't put up a fight against them. He will speak out against them sometimes but he won't put up a fight against them.

1.
he shouldn't have tried to fight it out in public.
regardless of who had initially started the public spit - in my book it's the wrong way to go about things even if you're 100% right.
and it's certainly not 'the liverpool way'.

2.
if you opose your boss make sure your job performances are top notch.
otherwise you'll give him every chance to get rid of you.
rafa shot himself in the foot with this abysmal season.
had he over-achieved, had he simply achieved what was expected of him then he'd still be here. he didn't, hence he isn't.

3.
you presume that roy's no pain in the arse because he doesn't criticise the owners every other day in the papers.
don't confuse that with being a yes-man. he might just be toeing the line in public and have a proper go at them behind closed doors.
fact is, you don't know.