Liverpool vs Sunderland post match

[SimonNo7]

I've highlighted the key word.

I can see why you say it seems that way. However, you then go on (and in other posts too) as though you've established the "lack of a winning mentality" as a fact.

If you want to stick to the realm of remote diagnosis of psychological problems afflicting two entire teams' worth of players (the starting line-ups for yesterday and Wednesday were entirely different), then lack of confidence is a perfectly reasonable alternative explanation. The team goes one up, the players know we haven't been playing well for over a year and we're always likely to concede and they drop back to protect the lead.

Of course there are plenty of other explanations too, none of which involve psychological problems or mental weakness - you know, like the players are told to drop deeper in the immediate aftermath to protect their advantage or even that the opposition raise their game because they actually need to score...

I certainly do not think that what I have said is fact and if it comes across that way it is not supposed to.

I know what you are saying about it afflicting two entire teams' worth of players which therefore suggests it is a squad issue which then, perhaps and I am only summising (sp?) here and as you do also, they are told drop deeper in the immediate aftermath to protect their advantage rather than build on it which suggests that both the current and previous manager preach it and it is ingrained into the players minds.

I'm not trying to suggest that I know what is going on, I don't of course like everybody else on here, I just think there is more to it than just bad management seeing as, and I know I have said this in other posts so sorry for repeating myself again, two respected managers can't seem to get this group of players to play as a team or get over what seem to be major problems, ie unable to build upon a 1 goal lead, only show passion and urgency when 1 goal behind etc.

[SimonNo7]

Gerrards goal record under Rafa

Appearances / Goals

2004–05 43 13
2005–06 53^ 23^
2006–07 51* 11
2007–08 52 21
2008–09 44 24
2009–10 49 12

His best goals tallys have come from playing right midfield and off Torres

Agree with that.

Personally I have never liked Gerrard as CM and have suggested a few times it might be worth trying him back out on the right with Cole behind Torres.

I know Cole is not going to contribute as many goals as Gerrard in that position but I wonder if Cole would contribute more goals from just behind Torres than Kuyt would from out on the right. Then if he did and Gerrard contributed as many as he did before from RM we would surely be better off?

The only question then would be, who would play LM?

[Daniel 7]

Agree with that.

Personally I have never liked Gerrard as CM and have suggested a few times it might be worth trying him back out on the right with Cole behind Torres.

I know Cole is not going to contribute as many goals as Gerrard in that position but I wonder if Cole would contribute more goals from just behind Torres than Kuyt would from out on the right. Then if he did and Gerrard contributed as many as he did before from RM we would surely be better off?

The only question then would be, who would play LM?

Gerrard right - I like that. In the absence of anyone else - play Kuyt on the left. If he's good enough to do it in a World Cup final, he can do it for Liverpool. Cole behind the striker, Meireles and Lucas in central mid.

[Mattshark]

Gerrard right - I like that. In the absence of anyone else - play Kuyt on the left. If he's good enough to do it in a World Cup final, he can do it for Liverpool. Cole behind the striker, Meireles and Lucas in central mid.

[Fredo]

its not difficult really, he is hugely out of his depth.

I sit behind dug out and he didnt even get up to try and gee them up, in fact when he did get off his sseat with 5 of the 6 injury time mins left it was to tell Joe Cole to get furhter back. He is so negative its untrue.

We play with 11 behind the ball against anyone. We dont press high up the field ever. We play so deep that we can compete for the 'second ball' as everyone is on the edge of the penalty box, its terrible to watch, terrible.

Witness how many second balls we won yesterday, i reckon about 10% hence conceeding posession to them in our own half regularly.

We simply need to get out and play higher, Roy needs to understand we are not Fulham, and despite the doom and gloom the 11 players on the pitch yesterday are better than 90% of premier league opposition and therfore should be set up to play that way-it as if Roy believes the doom and gloom, 100% those 11 players are better then 90% of opponents in the league, its just Roy sets them up like they are Fulham.

O and Konshesky, lets hope he is out for a long time because Agger is 10 times the player he is even at left back. Why oh Why if we are skint did we spend £3mm on a piss poor LB? Id rather have had Insua, definitly.

Spot on mate.

There were gaping holes between our lines yesterday (defence-midfield-attack). No link whatsoever and it was even more glaring when we didn't have the ball. Sunderland had so much space it was a bit surreal.

Any player with the ball at their feet hardly had anyone to pass to. At one point, Gerrard had it, strolled forward with the ball looking for an option but there was **** all. Meireles and Cole were so narrow and the reluctance of our fullbacks to advance left us with no options whatsoever when attacking.

We deserved nothing from this match. We had two or three occasions at the death out of long punts forward and out of Sunderland's awful defending. That was one of our worst performances for a long long time.

[5europeancups]

He's a cunt rather than a whined. O'Neill is a hapless bitch of a man.

Anyway we were taking about personalities, but O'Neill is basically Britist Houllier on speed.

I'd take a Houllier on speed right now.

Am hoping that the Northampton defeat will be succeeded in the same manner as the Worcester City defeat, with the arrival of a saviour.

[Neil Young]

I certainly do not think that what I have said is fact and if it comes across that way it is not supposed to.

I know what you are saying about it afflicting two entire teams' worth of players which therefore suggests it is a squad issue which then, perhaps and I am only summising (sp?) here and as you do also, they are told drop deeper in the immediate aftermath to protect their advantage rather than build on it which suggests that both the current and previous manager preach it and it is ingrained into the players minds.

I'm not trying to suggest that I know what is going on, I don't of course like everybody else on here, I just think there is more to it than just bad management seeing as, and I know I have said this in other posts so sorry for repeating myself again, two respected managers can't seem to get this group of players to play as a team or get over what seem to be major problems, ie unable to build upon a 1 goal lead, only show passion and urgency when 1 goal behind etc.

Maybe, in hindsight, I was too strong in my response.

It's an interesting question but I think it's probably a complicated answer. I don't think it's that the players don't care - perhaps some don't but I imagine their team-mates come down on that pretty sharpish. I'm sure lack of confidence and belief is part of it bit beyond that...?

I'm just not sure how good our squad, or even our first eleven, is. Torres (when fit and confident), Gerrard (at least he looks a bit better than last year)...then who? Reina obviously, but even he's not looking quite the rock he was, although I can't believe that's anything but a bit of bad luck. After those three, who? Who else would definitely get into Chelsea's match day squad?

Maybe we haven't got the quality.

[SimonNo7]

Maybe, in hindsight, I was too strong in my response.

It's an interesting question but I think it's probably a complicated answer. I don't think it's that the players don't care - perhaps some don't but I imagine their team-mates come down on that pretty sharpish. I'm sure lack of confidence and belief is part of it bit beyond that...?

I'm just not sure how good our squad, or even our first eleven, is. Torres (when fit and confident), Gerrard (at least he looks a bit better than last year)...then who? Reina obviously, but even he's not looking quite the rock he was, although I can't believe that's anything but a bit of bad luck. After those three, who? Who else would definitely get into Chelsea's match day squad?

Maybe we haven't got the quality.

No worries, it wasn't too strong.

Your para in bold is one that stands out to me and echoes my concerns exactly. How good is our first eleven? I think maybe we have all been wearing the old rose ones thinking that our first eleven is as good as Chelsea's, Man U's, Arsenal's or Man City's on paper and maybe looking at the names it is but, and this is a big but, perhaps it is not as good as those teams listed when it comes to being a team and maybe it never will because they cannot carry out the managers instructions (again both managers) or they just cannot play together. The season before last where they did manage it, maybe that was a one off and at the moment I'm beginning to think it was. On a more positive note perhaps this is why we should give Roy a proper amount of time because with Cole, Meireles and yes, Poulsen and Konchesky, these are 4 players that haven't been part of the squad for the last 5 years.

[Fredo]

This is appalling.

Link

Fans worried as website calls for 'hooliganism'
Irish supporters of Liverpool are concerned over article seeking to 'put the frighteners on' owners
John Downes, News Investigations Correspondent

Buyer beware: threatened Liverpool FC owners George Gillett (above left) and Tom Hicks
Irish supporters of Liverpool Football Club (LFC) have reacted with concern to an article on a well-known UK fan website urging them to "get the baseball bats and ski masks ready" to "put the frightners [sic] on" the club's beleaguered American owners George Gillett and Tom Hicks.

The article, posted on the popular Koptalk website by its editor, Duncan Oldham, is accompanied by a picture of a man in a black balaclava and holding what appears to be a crowbar.

A spokesman for Merseyside police has confirmed it is examining the content of the article to establish if it involves any public order offences.

The up-for-sale club is currently at the centre of a longstanding takeover battle which has led to numerous peaceful protests staged by fans encouraging Hicks and Gillett to sell their shares.

But supporters' groups here said they in "no way condone" the calls in the article for "every passionate Red out there who has a 'set' and who is capable of donning a ski mask and waving a baseball bat in a menacing manner, to step up to put the frighteners on these two and everyone they associate with including any companies that support them".

"Disruption, especially to financial institutions, is what they are scared of. And on a personal level, there's nobody in the world who's [sic] arse wouldn't collapse if someone peered over their bed in the middle of the night armed with a Texas Rangers baseball bat or two," it states. "I won't sign petitions, I won't send emails to journalists who don't care, but I will get stuck in via other methods best not written about. I don't care if I get into trouble with my words… I mean it. I mean every single word."

Oldham also stressed that while he does not believe in "anyone getting physically hurt", he acknowledged that this was "tempting" but not acceptable.

"They can cling on for as long as they want but something will give and that's why I'm fairly relaxed and confident that I won't have to do three months inside for threatening behaviour," he wrote. "Seriously, it's time to scare the **** out of them… People have died for our club. People have had their ashes scattered at Anfield."

Sarah Higgins, committee member of Tallaght LFC supporters' club, said many Irish fans of the Premier league club have taken part in peaceful demonstrations against its owners. She noted that Koptalk is an influential LFC site among supporters. "No one can condone violence of this sort at all," she told the Sunday Tribune. "I don't think it's the right message to put out at all. An awful lot of people would not get behind us if we did what is being suggested."

John Curtin, secretary of Cork-based Buttevant international LFC supporters' club agreed. "I wouldn't condone it in any way. It is bringing a violent hooliganism aspect back into something that the English FA has been working to eradicate," he said. "I can't see how any Liverpool fan would like to see that carry-on."

[Slinky Skills]

change has to be made now before it's too late.....i was all for giving roy time but it's not working out at all ..........

Me too but my patience is starting to wear thin now.

I do hope that he can turn it round but I just can't see it to be honest. Think he will have about another 5-6 matches to turn things around, if not he will be sacked.

Would like to see Owen Coyle or Moyes given a chance but Moyes wouldn't take it.

Ideal manager would be Ancelloti but there's zero chance of him coming.

[badpiggy]

Maybe, in hindsight, I was too strong in my response.

It's an interesting question but I think it's probably a complicated answer. I don't think it's that the players don't care - perhaps some don't but I imagine their team-mates come down on that pretty sharpish. I'm sure lack of confidence and belief is part of it bit beyond that...?

I'm just not sure how good our squad, or even our first eleven, is. Torres (when fit and confident), Gerrard (at least he looks a bit better than last year)...then who? Reina obviously, but even he's not looking quite the rock he was, although I can't believe that's anything but a bit of bad luck. After those three, who? Who else would definitely get into Chelsea's match day squad?

Maybe we haven't got the quality.

We probably don't have the quality and as fans we are obviously slow in recognising that. We lack game changers who can get us a goal when we're ****ed or don't deserve it. The 2 you mention are probably it. We hope Cole will be but we'll see... Babel doesn't... Kuyt the odd time. I also think we totally overrate Agger as a defender but after Carra, he's seen as the best we have.

Which would all indicate that Rafa worked wonders with us..

[red g]

Maybe, in hindsight, I was too strong in my response.

It's an interesting question but I think it's probably a complicated answer. I don't think it's that the players don't care - perhaps some don't but I imagine their team-mates come down on that pretty sharpish. I'm sure lack of confidence and belief is part of it bit beyond that...?

I'm just not sure how good our squad, or even our first eleven, is. Torres (when fit and confident), Gerrard (at least he looks a bit better than last year)...then who? Reina obviously, but even he's not looking quite the rock he was, although I can't believe that's anything but a bit of bad luck. After those three, who? Who else would definitely get into Chelsea's match day squad?

Maybe we haven't got the quality.

Mate, i think you have a touch Hodgson-itis, Out first 11 is very very good imoa nd not sure how you can question that,

Goalkeeper
Best in Prem. World class

Left Back
OK not great, but still good enough to get into a uefa final last year and he isnt as bad as some make out

Right Back
Played very well last year and still when plying well is one of the best attacking right backs in the league, Scores and creates

Centre Backs
Agger(should be 1st 11) He is quality and I honestly believe he has the quality ro be world class if played regularly

Carra
best years behind him, but with a fast ball playing c/b next to him would get in most teams in premiership

Poulsen
Steady eddie in a position where we can prob carry him a little

Merieles
as a centre mid, to ealry to judge but looks to have the quality

Cole
on the left, i dont really see a choice but been an integral member of winning the league and when playing well he is a player of top quality

Right Mid
Kuyt- we all know his strenghts and weaknesses but can so many managers be wrong on playing him all time?

Behind Striker
Gerrard
Get his mojo back and he is one of the best. World Class

Striker
Torres
See above.


I jsut dont see how that first 11 is not as good as anyone's in the premiership bar Chelsea.

I blamed Benitez last year and will blame Roy this year if he isn't capable of getting the best out of these players. That team should be going out to win every game and capable of doing so, bar going away to the top 3/4 teams.

Embarrassing that a draw with sunderland is viewed as a high


Also as regard the chelsea comment
Gerrard/Torres/Reina and Agger.

4 players who could get into that team.....how many other premiership teams could boast of doing the same?

[DannyMan2006]

When fit and on form our first eleven are of a very high quality. The problem is our main focal point, Torres, is woefully short of form and fitness. Yet he remains our only real threat going forwards, whilst Gerrard is already being asked to drag us out the fire all too often this season.

When it comes to changing the game, our subs have had little to no impact and that is also a massive impact on the team.

To make matters worse, the team is being asked to play to a style that doesn't work to their strengths.

[Icon]

I was pro Roy at the beginning.

I was even a little anti Rafa - my heart said yes, my head said no.

In hindsight, I was so wrong

This is ****ing heartbreaking...

[Fosterbloke]

Total cock custard.