Wigan

[Shaggy]

No examples then.

Seriously, if the bloke hardly costs us any goals - which he doesn't - then surely what he brings to the table attacking wise is well worth it. He's far from being the best defender around, that much is obvious, but he's not "****e". He's not a liability. If he was he'd have cost us loads of goals - which he hasn't and doesn't. I suspect you know it given your refusal to provide examples.

[/End thread] Lecter admits defeat

That old "my memory is ****e" chestnut!

[Lecter]

In an ideal world this would be perfect. I just cant think of anybody we could afford unfortunately.

IMO Johnson is just off form at the moment. I think its temporary, you and others think its permanent.

No that is incorrect

I think his defensive frailties have nothing to do with form

It was the same at Portsmouth

I said when we first signed him that he was nowhere near as good a defender as Arbeloa was and whilst he was better going forward than Arbeloa I am not sure whether that which you have gained was greater than that which you have lost (if you balance things out)

IMO hes been poor this season going forward and I felt at times his attacking play last season masked his defensive play

[Lecter]

No examples then.

Seriously, if the bloke hardly costs us any goals - which he doesn't - then surely what he brings to the table attacking wise is well worth it. He's far from being the best defender around, that much is obvious, but he's not "****e". He's not a liability. If he was he'd have cost us loads of goals - which he doesn't. I suspect you know it given your refusal to provide examples.




That old chestnut!

Ok then I will go and watch the goals and come back to you later

Get to 40 (after years of alcohol abuse) and try and remember your name and what you had for dinner last night then come and talk to me about memory lapses

[Fredo]

I'm sure that the idea was to 'work with him' when we signed him. He has tremendous attacking qualities and need someone to work on the lesser aspects of his game. He's still relatively young and I'm sure he can develop in a very good fullback with the required coaching - not sure Hodgson could give any assurances on that front though.

[Lecter]

I'm sure that the idea was to 'work with him' when we signed him. He has tremendous attacking qualities and need someone to work on the lesser aspects of his game. He's still relatively young and I'm sure he can develop in a very good fullback with the required coaching - not sure Hodgson could give any assurances on that front though.

To me there is some players you can help and others you cant

People use to say the same thing about Riise but we'd still be coaching him today and not getting any more out of him

Frankly I'd rather concentrate on Kelly

I reckon he will end up a better player than Johnson (in all round terms) anyway

[dww]

It's hyperbole IMO. He's obviously no Maldini and he obviously has weaknesses, but it's blown way, way out of proportion. If he was as bad as some like to try and make out, Capello wouldn't touch him with a bargepole. Ask yourself how many goals Johnson's so-called wank defending has cost us - the answer is not very many. Not very many at all.

I honestly can't decide on this one. I think part of the problem is that we have never created a suitable system to get the best out of him. We never have a pacey covering defender and we have never played as flexible a defensive system as Barcelona (which I think would be perfect for him).

I'm always pretty poor at remembering the goals we concede in detail.

I agree with your comments about how people want some sort of as yet unseen super being (or Cafu) at fullback capable of great things in attack and defence.

For me though the thing that gets me about Johnson is that he isn't careful enough bringing the ball into midfield. I can accept the swap of defensive stability for attacking prowess but his distribution from deep does too often give the ball back to the opposition in my opinion. It was one feature of Arbeloas game I really liked (unlike Lecter I quite rated him all round too).

[Exiled_red]

You need to get the balance right between defending and attacking but obviously his first priority should be to defend and more often than not he doesn't do that well.

Give me Arbeloa over Johnson any day, i wouldn't call him too defensive either, he got forward well too. I wasn't his biggest fan actually although looking back now, he was a solid player for us come to think of it.

I think that's the problem, either you use him as a defensive full back and limit the amount he goes forward, or you use him as an attacking fullback and accept that he will get caught out of position at times.

I think alot of the critisism he gets has been unfair because people expect him to do both, his defending looks bad when we play him in an attacking role because he has alot of ground to cover to get back. He's a decent defender when he focuses on defending. We just need to choose which role we want him to play.

[elrichio86]

No that is incorrect

I think his defensive frailties have nothing to do with form

It was the same at Portsmouth

I said when we first signed him that he was nowhere near as good a defender as Arbeloa was and whilst he was better going forward than Arbeloa I am not sure whether that which you have gained was greater than that which you have lost (if you balance things out)

IMO hes been poor this season going forward and I felt at times his attacking play last season masked his defensive play

Thats what I meant - wrong choice of words

I think Johnson is more suited to last seasons 4231 system than 442. The 4231 provides the necessary DM's to cover his excursions forward. This isnt available this year, and so he is caught out. If Roy stays for a couple of seasons (shudders) I can see Johnson leaving as he's not suitable for these tactics.

[Fredo]

I honestly can't decide on this one. I think part of the problem is that we have never created a suitable system to get the best out of him. We never have a pacey covering defender and we have never played as flexible a defensive system as Barcelona (which I think would be perfect for him).

I'm always pretty poor at remembering the goals we concede in detail.

I agree with your comments about how people want some sort of as yet unseen super being (or Cafu) at fullback capable of great things in attack and defence.

For me though the thing that gets me about Johnson is that he isn't careful enough bringing the ball into midfield. I can accept the swap of defensive stability for attacking prowess but his distribution from deep does too often give the ball back to the opposition in my opinion. It was one feature of Arbeloas game I really liked (unlike Lecter I quite rated him all round too).

You make an excellent point. I think that has to do with his decision making, which is not the best (even when marauding deep in the opposition half). I've seen him stop, have a look around and opt for the 'blind alley' route many a times, instead of choosing to pass it or just go to the byline and cross.

Johnson is the type of player who needs a lot of coaching to take his game to the next level. I don't think he's intelligent enough to take bits and pieces from people and improve from then on. He needs stability and someone who works on rattling down the same things to him on the training pitch day in day out.

[Lecter]

It was one feature of Arbeloas game I really liked (unlike Lecter I quite rated him all round too).

I actually quite liked Arbeloa as an all round player and have said virtually that above

To me he wasnt brilliant at coming forward but he did a good enough job

Defensively he was far far superior to Johnson

To me it doesnt have to be all or nothing Steve Nicol was brilliant at doing both (probably the best I've seen at Liverpool and probably one of the most underrated British fullbacks ever), Babbel was also extremely good at doing both, Arbeloa had a nice balance also and I think Kelly will be able to do both

[Lecter]

No examples then.

Seriously, if the bloke hardly costs us any goals - which he doesn't - then surely what he brings to the table attacking wise is well worth it. He's far from being the best defender around, that much is obvious, but he's not "****e". He's not a liability. If he was he'd have cost us loads of goals - which he hasn't and doesn't. I suspect you know it given your refusal to provide examples.




That old "my memory is ****e" chestnut!

I think West Ham away was one game were he cost us at least one of goals although I cant be arsed looking for the goals I seem to remember that match for some reason

[Shaggy]

We had balance with Arbeloa yet loads of people still moaned about him. "Not good enough going forward!!!1". We have balance with Aurelio (or used to when he played) and still some people reckon he's ****e/can't defend. Can't win.

If you have an attacking full-back you have to be prepared to make a concession. And given that Johnson isn't a liability who costs us a goal every other week, it's a concession well worth making.

Having said all that, Kelly is doing very well on the whole and it's great to have a bit of competition for Johnson, even though MK is primarily a centre-half.

[Lecter]

We had balance with Arbeloa yet loads of people still moaned about him. "Not good enough going forward!!!1". We have balance with Aurelio (or used to when he played) and still some people reckon he's ****e/can't defend. Can't win.

If you have an attacking full-back you have to be prepared to make a concession. And given that Johnson isn't a liability who costs us a goal every other week, it's a concession well worth making.

Having said all that, Kelly is doing very well on the whole and it's great to have a bit of competition for Johnson, even though MK is primarily a centre-half.

you would never hear me moaning about Arbeloa over Johnson

I said at the time the idea of selling Arby for £3 million and getting Johnson (who I considered a lesser player) was madness

[Lecter]

We had balance with Arbeloa yet loads of people still moaned about him. "Not good enough going forward!!!1". We have balance with Aurelio (or used to when he played) and still some people reckon he's ****e/can't defend. Can't win.

If you have an attacking full-back you have to be prepared to make a concession. And given that Johnson isn't a liability who costs us a goal every other week, it's a concession well worth making.

Having said all that, Kelly is doing very well on the whole and it's great to have a bit of competition for Johnson, even though MK is primarily a centre-half.

The thing as well is to me defending is about being a unit

There is no doubt the unit looks stronger when Johnson isnt playing

Even Carragher (who make no mistake is on his way down) looks far more assurred when Johnson isnt there

As for Kelly people keep saying hes a centrehalf and that may be true but hes very like Markus Babbel in terms of physique and style of play. I actually think he will end up more a fullback than a centrehalf but he may go back inside before coming back out (much like Babbel did)

[Rudo]

I think West Ham away was one game were he cost us at least one of goals although I cant be arsed looking for the goals I seem to remember that match for some reason

He gave away a Penalty against Blackpool not so long ago, in fact i think it might have been the last match he played for us since his injury.

He was also at fault for Arsenal's equaliser in the 1st game of the season, poor clearance an failed to close down Arshavin - who crossed the ball in.

It's not just these incidents, it's his all round play and the amount of errors he makes during games. And for those saying, his mistakes don't lead to goals, maybe that's true but if you say he's so good going forward...how many assists/goals has he delivered?