Liverpool Stoke post game waking up thread

[Mattshark]

Dunno Kris, Suarez is often 'let-off' for his efforts, mainly because he had created the opportunity himself. I can think of many chances thar Suarez has dragged and scuffed, but can only think of Carroll's recently mis-controlled ball against Newcastle.

It can be argued that Carroll isn't in the position to take chances, but he's certainly not wasteful. Bar some great goalkeeping, he could have been rewarded with helping us grab 3 points from games were we ended up with 1.

To be fair he also air balled a few chances, notably some awful lack of control v WBA were if he had better technique, he'd easily have had a hat-trick.

[Pablo]

He can barely stand up without stumbling and falling over at the moment, is he playing pissed?

[Lecter]

From memory, Carroll has missed far more sitters than Suarez has this season. But how do you measure the difficulty of a chance? This is one of the flaws of only looking at the chance conversion rate - it assumes all chances are equally difficult.

Carroll has missed more sitters than Suarez but then his conversion rate is lower than Suarez's

Suarez has missed some sitters as well

Couple of them v Norwich, same with Stoke away (Villas away although he did create that out of nothing to be fair to him) there was a header the other week before his suspension that he missed and thats just off the top of my head

Carroll has missed plenty of them as well Swansea at home couple against City at home and Fulham away

I always look at a players reaction if they miss a chance its normally a guide as to how easy it was

Quite often we've seen Carroll, Suarez or Kuyt wringing their hands, looking at the stars, putting their hands together and praying

A half decent striker but have snaffled a lot of those chances, someone like Rush would have had a field day

[GTi]

What I don't see is people saying Carroll has zero technique.

He has a poor touch but his left foot is amongst the best I've ever seen, if he catches it well it normally ends up going in.

The main gripe I have with him is that fact that he drops so deep, he needs to stay around the area. imo.

Carroll really is having a torres torres time in front of goal it has to be said.

[Lecter]

To be fair he also air balled a few chances, notably some awful lack of control v WBA were if he had better technique, he'd easily have had a hat-trick.

Carroll could have had a hattrick against City as well and probably Newcastle

Yes some of those chances have been prevented by good goalkeeping but most others hes just failed to hit the target with or had the touch of a rocking horse

[Muddled]

To be fair he also air balled a few chances, notably some awful lack of control v WBA were if he had better technique, he'd easily have had a hat-trick.

Yeah, from memory his goal came from a heavy touch too.

I didn't really see much of him at Newcastle, so can't comment with any authority, but I wonder if his first touch has deserted him; a heavy touch due to pressure maybe?

The games I did see of him at Newcastle, he was mainly placed in the box and told to wait for the ball, or play for the second ball. Perhaps he's struggling with the movement element we expect from him here and when he does drop deep, his lay off is from a heavy foot.

I think if anything, the main area to address with regards to Carroll is his movement. There was an instance in yesterday's game when he had drifted wide right and Johnson (I think) had the ball, now instead of sprinting in to the box, he just dropped off him and sauntered to his right. Johnson looked up and had to check back because nobody was there, it was only then he made an effort to get in the mix.

[Mostar]

It's not an ideal time to go and buy a striker.

I don't think we have any choice in the matter.

We cannot leave things as they are.

We have to go out and buy a striker and to me the only question is if we will be going for already established player or someone with a good potential.

Going into the second part of the season and not strengthening in that department imo would be suicidal.

I also think we have to buy another midfielder too as we are very lean in that area as well and hopefully AM/winger.

To me all 3 positions are priorities and I think we'll see at least 2 new signings this window.

[kris90210]

Carroll has missed more sitters than Suarez but then his conversion rate is lower than Suarez's

Suarez has missed some sitters as well

Couple of them v Norwich, same with Stoke away (Villas away although he did create that out of nothing to be fair to him) there was a header the other week before his suspension that he missed and thats just off the top of my head

Carroll has missed plenty of them as well Swansea at home couple against City at home and Fulham away

I always look at a players reaction if they miss a chance its normally a guide as to how easy it was

Quite often we've seen Carroll, Suarez or Kuyt wringing their hands, looking at the stars, putting their hands together and praying

A half decent striker but have snaffled a lot of those chances, someone like Rush would have had a field day

For sure - as I said, it was from memory. I'm sure there are plenty I've forgotten about. My main point in that post was how to factor in difficulty into chance conversion, because I do think it needs to be taken into account.

In addition, it should be pointed out that Carroll's main role in the team is to score goals. He's a striker. Suarez's role is different - create and score. He's not scoring as many as he should (I think he'll come good on this front by the way), but he's creating chances.

Anyway, I really don't want to get dragged back into debating the same points over and over. We'll just have to agree to disagree mate

[Lecter]

For sure - as I said, it was from memory. I'm sure there are plenty I've forgotten about. My main point in that post was how to factor in difficulty into chance conversion, because I do think it needs to be taken into account.

In addition, it should be pointed out that Carroll's main role in the team is to score goals. He's a striker. Suarez's role is different - create and score. He's not scoring as many as he should (I think he'll come good on this front by the way), but he's creating chances.

Anyway, I really don't want to get dragged back into debating the same points over and over. We'll just have to agree to disagree mate

We dont know why Suarez was bought we can only summise

Presumably the club looked at him as a player and also looked at his goal return in Holland

I'd presume they bought him for the qualities that he was showing in Holland

Creating chances AND scoring ****loads of goals

Now whilst he is doing the former hes certainly not doing enough of the latter

Also you could put the same argument forward for Carroll

Presumably when LFC watched him they will have noted he wasnt prolific but they would have expected some kind of return

Neither Carroll nor Suarez are coming ANYWHERE near the goal return

Personally I think they expected 15-20 goals from each of them

Based on some of the chances they've had they could have both easily had 15

[kris90210]

We dont know why Suarez was bought we can only summise

Presumably the club looked at him as a player and also looked at his goal return in Holland

I'd presume they bought him for the qualities that he was showing in Holland

Creating chances AND scoring ****loads of goals

Now whilst he is doing the former hes certainly not doing enough of the latter

Also you could put the same argument forward for Carroll

Presumably when LFC watched him they will have noted he wasnt prolific but they would have expected some kind of return

Neither Carroll nor Suarez are coming ANYWHERE near the goal return

Personally I think they expected 15-20 goals from each of them

Based on some of the chances they've had they could have both easily had 15

Suarez is a number 10 mate. You've only got to watch him play to realise that.

[Lecter]

Suarez is a number 10 mate. You've only got to watch him play to realise that.

Hes playing No.7 mate I only have to see his shirt to see that

You seriously think LFC would have looked at him and said "ah yes lets sign him he's scored 81 goals in 110 games for Ajax but if he gets us a dozen goals a season that'll do because hes a number 10"

Seriously have a word with yourself

They will but looking at returns based on what they were doing at previous clubs

[Mostar]

We dont know why Suarez was bought we can only summise

Presumably the club looked at him as a player and also looked at his goal return in Holland

I'd presume they bought him for the qualities that he was showing in Holland

Creating chances AND scoring ****loads of goals

Now whilst he is doing the former hes certainly not doing enough of the latter

Also you could put the same argument forward for Carroll

Presumably when LFC watched him they will have noted he wasnt prolific but they would have expected some kind of return

Neither Carroll nor Suarez are coming ANYWHERE near the goal return

Personally I think they expected 15-20 goals from each of them

Based on some of the chances they've had they could have both easily had 15

He was brought in to complement and help Torres in terms of creating chances and scoring, as you said yourself, but he was never brought to be a sole striker that we'll have to rely game in and game out and that is exactly what he has turned into.

That is the reason why I think his conversion ratio is not the greatest as he feels obligated to continuously produce and is forcing the issue too much as he knows we don't have anybody else to bang the goals as Carroll is just simply not good enough and huge disappointment.

I think, once we bring another striker, who in fact will do what he is suppose to, I think Suarez's decision making skills and the goal production will improve as I don't think he'll be pressured so much and he won't be trying to score all the time even when would be better to pass, set up an assist etc.

[Lecter]

He was brought in to complement and help Torres in terms of creating chances and scoring, as you said yourself, but he was never brought to be a sole striker that we'll have to rely game in and game out and that is what he has turned into.

That is the reason why I think his conversion ratio is not the greatest as he feels obligated to continuously produce and is forcing the issue too much as he knows we don't have anybody else to bang the goals as Carroll is just simply not good enough and huge disappointment.

I think, once we bring another striker, who in fact will do what he is suppose, I think Suarez decision making skills and goal production will improve as I don't think he'll be trying to score all the time even when he suppose to pass.

You cant blame Carroll for Suarez missing chances

Thats ****ing bollocks

FACT is he scored bucketloads at Ajax and the club will have been expecting a similar return

[Craig_H]

I dont think they were expecting a similar return at all. Nobody at the club is daft enough to expect someone from the Dutch league to produce similar in the PL.

Dirk Kuyt should've taught us a lesson where that is concerned.

[kris90210]

Hes playing No.7 mate I only have to see his shirt to see that

You seriously think LFC would have looked at him and said "ah yes lets sign him he's scored 81 goals in 110 games for Ajax but if he gets us a dozen goals a season that'll do because hes a number 10"

Seriously have a word with yourself

They will but looking at returns based on what they were doing at previous clubs

Boom. Neil Young, there's a new comedian in town.

I think that watching him play you can see there is far more to his game than scoring goals. That's what I meant by saying he's a number 10. No one is arguing that we wouldn't like him to score more.

Lecter, genuine question - when was the last time you changed your mind on anything football related? You and Craig are actually very, very similar in many ways.