Manager Poll

[Darkon]

If they were so blatant and obvious, why did we sign all three of those players unchallenged? We signed Alonso unchallenged relatively cheaply, we took Mascherano on loan, unchallenged, and also had a completely free run at Torres, a player who'd gone stale at Atleti and had no other suitors.

There is always a question of why in the current time nobody else is buying the player, or perhaps we just don't hear about it.

But Alonso was a huge talent at the time, and we bought him from Sociedad where he had a low release clause and the club was in financial trouble. Mascherano was mishandled for a while, but he was one of the most hyped Argentinian talents at the time - everybody in football knew about him. Same with Torres really, huge talent for everyone to see.

My point is not that we didn't do well in signing them, but rather that it hardly says anything about our scouting team. It's a bit like when we discuss on the forum that we should sign, Munian, Hazard, Göetze etc. They are all very obvious talents, and it hardly takes a scouting network to know.

So from my entire post, and not just what you quoted, the scouting network should be judged on the less obvious/known talents and it that regard we havn't been great in the past 10-15 years IMO with some exception as mentioned.

[Darkon]

It was talked about plenty by Rafa himself, he said our scouting network was basically 0 outside of the UK and France when he took over from Houlier.

And it took us Houllier to get a scouting team outside the UK! Which is quite incredible considering how big a club we are/were. I think it's taken us too long to adjust after the bossman.

[Robbie-9-Fowler]

And it took us Houllier to get a scouting team outside the UK! Which is quite incredible considering how big a club we are/were. I think it's taken us too long to adjust after the bossman.

It really does hurt your head to think.. If we extended to France, why not Spain? Other parts of Europe? I mean it was a step, but Houlier was here long enough to take us the step further.

[Shaggy]

There is always a question of why in the current time nobody else is buying the player, or perhaps we just don't hear about it.

But Alonso was a huge talent at the time, and we bought him from Sociedad where he had a low release clause and the club was in financial trouble. Mascherano was mishandled for a while, but he was one of the most hyped Argentinian talents at the time - everybody in football knew about him. Same with Torres really, huge talent for everyone to see.

My point is not that we didn't do well in signing them, but rather that it hardly says anything about our scouting team. It's a bit like when we discuss on the forum that we should sign, Munian, Hazard, Göetze etc. They are all very obvious talents, and it hardly takes a scouting network to know.

So from my entire post, and not just what you quoted, the scouting network should be judged on the less obvious/known talents and it that regard we havn't been great in the past 10-15 years IMO with some exception as mentioned.

I think you do our scouting network - back then anyway - a great disservice. Those signings say a lot about our scouting at the time.

You say Torres was a "huge talent for everybody to see", and "everybody knew about Mascherano". So where were they? We signed them *unchallenged*.

The scouting network should be judged on everything, not just the "less obvious ones". We signed Torres, Mascherano and Alonso completely unchallenged - not a single other club competed with us for their signatures. Torres, for example, was viewed by many as a risk, had gone stale, didn't score enough goals etc. Like I said if they were so glaringly obvious then there would've been a long queue of clubs trying to sign them, but there wasn't, and our scouts and management team at the time deserve great credit for signing those players, rather than revisionism and glossing over them as obvious and players any old idiots could've spotted.

[Chrono]

So pointless creating a poll and then changing it just to accomodate Rafa after several votes had been cast. Surely anyone could have put him in the "someone else" bracket instead of turning this in to yet another ****ing boring thread about Rafa. What could have been an interesting topic is now just like every other thread on the forum.

[baitman]

although torres was doing it for atletico, he was considered a risk by many managers and pundits. they doubted his ability to take it to the next level, and tough it out in the prem. im sure sevral of them were a little pissed off that he was such a killer for us

re scouting; ged had his contacts in france, so would only look to the talent pool he knew. rafa similarly with spain. we need a europe wide set of contacts. maybe we should just get tim vickery and gabby marcotti signed up.

[Darkon]

I think you do our scouting network - back then anyway - a great disservice. Those signings say a lot about our scouting at the time.

You say Torres was a "huge talent for everybody to see", and "everybody knew about Mascherano". So where were they? We signed them *unchallenged*.

The scouting network should be judged on everything, not just the "less obvious ones". We signed Torres, Mascherano and Alonso completely unchallenged - not a single other club competed with us for their signatures. Torres, for example, was viewed by many as a risk, had gone stale, didn't score enough goals etc. Like I said if they were so glaringly obvious then there would've been a long queue of clubs trying to sign them, but there wasn't, and our scouts and management team at the time deserve great credit for signing those players, rather than revisionism and glossing over them as obvious and players any old idiots could've spotted.

We have to disagree about that then, I think our scouting team since the Bossman verdict have been really poor. I certainly knew those players as great talents at the time, and I'm sure most people interested in European football knew a lot about them already. Mascherano together with Tevez was Argentinas biggest talents, and they ended up in West Ham under a lot of talk - so that's where he were (not sure what you mean by that question, Alsonso was Sociedads most important player and Torres was Madrids biggest talent and linked to Real, Barca and other clubs). Alsonso and Torres was known to everybody watching Spanish football as very promising players. We did well to sign them for sure, but it's in my view hardly a credit to the scouting team, but rather to the manager and other backroom staff.

I don't know where you know for a fact we signed Alonso, Mascher etc. unchallenged, but I very much doubt others wheren't looking at some of the most obvious talents at the time. Torres and Alonso was linked high and wide at the time, we were perhaps the only ones to get really serious though. Loads of players have been signed unchallenged due to circumstances, and it's not an indicator on them being obvious talents or not.

We clearly don't agree, but to me a scouting network should be judged on the unkown talents around and especially the youngsters and in that respect we have been very poor since the Bossman comparing us to most other top clubs.

[Shaggy]

We have to disagree about that then, I think our scouting team since the Bossman verdict have been really poor. I certainly knew those players as great talents at the time, and I'm sure most people interested in European football knew a lot about them already. Mascherano together with Tevez was Argentinas biggest talents, and they ended up in West Ham under a lot of talk - so that's where he were (not sure what you mean by that question, Alsonso was Sociedads most important player and Torres was Madrids biggest talent and linked to Real, Barca and other clubs). Alsonso and Torres was known to everybody watching Spanish football as very promising players.

I'm not saying otherwise - we all knew about them - but no other manager or football club was prepared to take the plunge on any of those three players when we signed them. All signings are risks but those three arguably represented bigger risks than usual. United watched Alonso and Torres for a long time but faultless Mr Ferguson was not prepared to take the plunge on either.

Overall we have clearly failed to unearth many of the more obscure gems, I agree. Arbeloa and Agger are two very good examples. I agree with your overall point ....just gets my goat when those three signings in particular are dismissed as signings any old idiot would've made. It's something the British press are fond of doing with regards to Benitez's bigger signings (in particular Torres), and IMO it's absolute rubbish. That we didn't have any competition for their signings speaks volumes. If it was so easy then Chelsea, United, Barca or Real would've signed all three. But they didn't, we did

[Darkon]

I'm not saying otherwise - we all knew about them - but no other manager or football club was prepared to take the plunge on any of those three players when we signed them. All signings are risks but those three arguably represented bigger risks than usual. United watched Alonso and Torres for a long time but faultless Mr Ferguson was not prepared to take the plunge on either.

Overall we have clearly failed to unearth many of the more obscure gems, I agree. Arbeloa and Agger are two very good examples. I agree with your overall point ....just gets my goat when those three signings in particular are dismissed as signings any old idiot would've made. It's something the British press are fond of doing with regards to Benitez's bigger signings (in particular Torres), and IMO it's absolute rubbish. That we didn't have any competition for their signings speaks volumes. If it was so easy then Chelsea, United, Barca or Real would've signed all three. But they didn't, we did

I think you have to let go of the idea it's a go at Rafa just because something is questioned under his time here; it's not - so not need to defend him there. I think he personally did well to sign them, took a lot of work, just don't think we can credit a scouting team with talents of that proportion. You always take a risk with signings, Morientes was a great signing on paper that just didn't work out for example, and I don't discredit the scouting team for him to reverse the example.

My point was just that we have been rubbish at discovering the gems in football like we did with Agger and Arbeloa over the past 15 years or so.

[Shaggy]

I think you have to let go of the idea it's a go at Rafa just because something is questioned under his time here; it's not - so not need to defend him there. I think he personally did well to sign them, took a lot of work, just don't think we can credit a scouting team with talents of that proportion. You always take a risk with signings, Morientes was a great signing on paper that just didn't work out for example, and I don't discredit the scouting team for him to reverse the example.

My point was just that we have been rubbish at discovering the gems in football like we did with Agger and Arbeloa over the past 15 years or so.

I'm not 'defending Benitez', I just fundamentally disagree that a) those signings were a piece of piss and b) that scouts should be judged entirely on their ability to spot and sign players under the radar.

Scouting a player is more than just seeing if they're any good football, there is a great deal more to it. They deserve credit in this instance because all three fitted perfectly into the way we played, and all were great professionals with a fantastic mentality. United's scouts apparently told Mr Ferguson Alonso was too slow to succeed. Ours obviously disagreed.

I agree with your general point as I said, I just disagree with dismissing those three signings as obvious and that the scouts can't take any credit. Chelsea & United's scouts clearly failed with regards to those players, so by definition ours deserve credit.

And while we must do better with our 'off the radar' signings, the majority of signings by successful clubs who are where we aspire to be are well-known players. There's only Wenger who goes down the "buy 'em young" route. United, Chelsea etc largely sign players we all know about. And now we need to improve in that area too, as everybody knew about Downing, Carroll, Adam etc. Unfortunately most also knew they weren't very good.

[dom9]

I'm not 'defending Benitez', I just fundamentally disagree that a) those signings were a piece of piss and b) that scouts should be judged entirely on their ability to spot and sign players under the radar.

Scouting a player is more than just seeing if they're any good football, there is a great deal more to it. They deserve credit in this instance because all three fitted perfectly into the way we played, and all were great professionals with a fantastic mentality. United's scouts apparently told Mr Ferguson Alonso was too slow to succeed. Ours obviously disagreed.

I agree with your general point as I said, I just disagree with dismissing those three signings as obvious and that the scouts can't take any credit. Chelsea & United's scouts clearly failed with regards to those players, so by definition ours deserve credit.

And while we must do better with our 'off the radar' signings, the majority of signings by successful clubs who are where we aspire to be are well-known players. There's only Wenger who goes down the "buy 'em young" route. United, Chelsea etc largely sign players we all know about. And now we need to improve in that area too, as everybody knew about Downing, Carroll, Adam etc. Unfortunately most also knew they weren't very good.

Reina's another example.

Although he and Alonso arrived in Rafa's inaugral summer, so were arguably down to him knowing the Spanish League inside out rather than the scouting network adding any value.

[RichC]

The thing is though, that a scouting team should not be judged by it's ability to spot all the obvious talents we all heard about before ie. Mascherano, Alonso, Torres but rather on the unknown talents they find where I think Reina, Agger and arguably Arbeloa.

I don't think the clubs scouting team have been particularly impressive over the last 10-15 years tbh. Very few real gems we have gotten in to the club from an unkown position.

Ah mate to be fair he got these players to join us and they worked wonderfully well in the way he wanted us to play.

One thing for me Rafa and his team were good at doing was picking (on the whole) the right players to fit into the football we were playing.

[Darkon]

I'm not 'defending Benitez', I just fundamentally disagree that a) those signings were a piece of piss and b) that scouts should be judged entirely on their ability to spot and sign players under the radar.

Scouting a player is more than just seeing if they're any good football, there is a great deal more to it. They deserve credit in this instance because all three fitted perfectly into the way we played, and all were great professionals with a fantastic mentality. United's scouts apparently told Mr Ferguson Alonso was too slow to succeed. Ours obviously disagreed.

I agree with your general point as I said, I just disagree with dismissing those three signings as obvious and that the scouts can't take any credit. Chelsea & United's scouts clearly failed with regards to those players, so by definition ours deserve credit.

And while we must do better with our 'off the radar' signings, the majority of signings by successful clubs who are where we aspire to be are well-known players. There's only Wenger who goes down the "buy 'em young" route. United, Chelsea etc largely sign players we all know about. And now we need to improve in that area too, as everybody knew about Downing, Carroll, Adam etc. Unfortunately most also knew they weren't very good.

Reina and Alonso for example was bought by Rafa almost when he got to our club, so that is IMO clearly more his signing than by recommendation from our scouting team especially considering the state it was in at the time before Rafa came and he himself noticed. More of manager signings. Mascher might be different, I never worked behind the LFC scenes, so don't know - but I would be shocked if Rafa didn't know all his credentials by himself.

And I never called them a piece of piss, it was very good craftmanship getting them here without a doubt, and they did very well for us.

I just feel we have lost out in the scouting department for a very long time now. From Evans ->

[Darkon]

Ah mate to be fair he got these players to join us and they worked wonderfully well in the way he wanted us to play.

One thing for me Rafa and his team were good at doing was picking (on the whole) the right players to fit into the football we were playing.

I never said otherwise did I?

Just don't think a scouting networkds finest credentials are meassured upon getting well known players here, that is more down to the manager and directors.

[little dave hedgehog]

reina was the second year.

remember all that jerzy dudek stuff in a certain match?