Is it time the clock really started ticking?

[~LFCHistory~]

I don't know, I think he makes a fair point about the double standards. Many people's views on the two seem so polarised but maybe that's just the way things come across.

He said Xabi was here for 3 years and that he was average for half the time he was here. Nonsense.

Also I think Xabi has proved that he is by far the superior talent to Torres by what both of them have achieved since they left here. Xabi at 31 is still arguably the best midfielder on the planet, Torres at 29 is 4 years past his prime and is arguably the worst striker in the PL.

[Sarb]

Also, if you're not giving a polarised view and taking a balanced approach to it, Xabi was pretty settled before Rafa started trying to sell him in public. To say he handed in a transfer request is doing him a dis-service if you don't explain what led upto that event.

Alonso had a dip in form. To say he was poor/average for a longer time than he was good is incorrect in my opinion. He was a class act who struggled after coming back from his injury. In his final season he was pure class and he was sold well before he should have been. Has gone on to prove he is one of the best central midfielders in Europe. Him not being in the team had a pretty big impact on us dropping out of being a top 4 side in my view

[Tee]

Also, if you're not giving a polarised view and taking a balanced approach to it, Xabi was pretty settled before Rafa started trying to sell him in public. To say he handed in a transfer request is doing him a dis-service if you don't explain what led upto that event.

Alonso had a dip in form. To say he was poor/average for a longer time than he was good is incorrect in my opinion. He was a class act who struggled after coming back from his injury. In his final season he was pure class and he was sold well before he should have been. Has gone on to prove he is one of the best central midfielders in Europe. Him not being in the team had a pretty big impact on us dropping out of being a top 4 side in my view

Yep, far greater than the loss of Torres. Xabi has simply never been replaced, from Aquilani to Adam ( ) Managers have tried and failed.

Only solution is to bring the lad home, because it is wher ehis heart is and I think at this stage of his career that ill carry some serious weight. Infact, I will go so far as to saying bring Xabi home, get a top draw CB and with some luck Stevie could still get that PL medal before he bows out.

[Sarb]

Yep, far greater than the loss of Torres. Xabi has simply never been replaced, from Aquilani to Adam ( ) Managers have tried and failed.

Only solution is to bring the lad home, because it is wher ehis heart is and I think at this stage of his career that ill carry some serious weight. Infact, I will go so far as to saying bring Xabi home, get a top draw CB and with some luck Stevie could still get that PL medal before he bows out.

Was absolutely gutted when he left. Loved the guy. Such a cool character too. To think we even considered Aquilani a worthy replacement. Not even fit to lace Xabi's boots. Couldn't give a toss if the plan was to buy Jovetic too. I'd rather have kept Xabi than buy Jovetic and Aquilani

[Rich]

No offence Tee but I hate the title of this thread. What does it even mean!?

The club has been trying to win the league the moment we last won it. I'm sure every single manager (apart from Hodgson) since has felt the incredible pressure that not winning the league brings. It almost killed Houllier.

We've been close a couple of times but generally we aren't the force we once were - we might never get back to those unbelievable heights, such is the changing landscape of the game. If we don’t it wont be through want of trying, it is because football has eaten itself and is ruled by a tiny number of multi-billionaire owners.

But because of our past everybody associated at the club today will be well aware of where the fans expect the club to be.

We can't magic up a load of world beating kids and if a multi-billionaire had opened his cheque book to buy us then I'm pretty damn sure we'd now be his plaything.

So we're left with where we are now, we have competent owners willing to invest significant funds into the club – look at the net spend since FSG have been here, the figures don’t lie. They’ve spent money. But at the top end of the market we just can’t compete, back in the late-60s, 70s, 80s, and much of the 90s we did operate right at the top end, we could match any English club.

The problem is – we’ve had a massive wage bill (one much too large for our revenues), we’ve wasted money on poor/average players, and we’ve pissed a load of money away on chopping and changing managers.

[Tee]

None taken Rich.

I just have felt since Rafa left that we moved the goalposts of expectations. If you don't get how I feel about the league title being an obsession then I cannot explain it any better.

Yes, Managers have tried and failed since 1990, but we have never had that same movement that Utd had in their quest for what they dubbed 'The Holy Grail'. Well all I want is our quest for the 'Holy Grail' to be just that, not a stepping stone journey because I don't believe that will work - I want Gerrard to be a PL winner...I want the likes of Pepe, Suarez and Agger to win the PL in their time here. Football waits for no one and this gradual building process should be secondary to the main task which is here and now - get the players in who can come straight in and get us challenging.

Too much to ask I know. Unrealistic? Deluded. Whatever.

[Neil Young]

He said Xabi was here for 3 years and that he was average for half the time he was here. Nonsense.

Also I think Xabi has proved that he is by far the superior talent to Torres by what both of them have achieved since they left here. Xabi at 31 is still arguably the best midfielder on the planet, Torres at 29 is 4 years past his prime and is arguably the worst striker in the PL.

Also, if you're not giving a polarised view and taking a balanced approach to it, Xabi was pretty settled before Rafa started trying to sell him in public. To say he handed in a transfer request is doing him a dis-service if you don't explain what led upto that event.

Alonso had a dip in form. To say he was poor/average for a longer time than he was good is incorrect in my opinion. He was a class act who struggled after coming back from his injury. In his final season he was pure class and he was sold well before he should have been. Has gone on to prove he is one of the best central midfielders in Europe. Him not being in the team had a pretty big impact on us dropping out of being a top 4 side in my view

I agree with a lot of that. I wouldn't equate Alonso and Torres but I do feel Alonso shouldn't be absolved of all responsibility for quitting LFC and I don't think Torres should be demonised for what was essentially the same decision.

I think Benitez made a mistake in how he handled Alonso - it was a big mistake and it cost him and us. But, as many have noted, Alonso's dip in form lasted for quite a while and when he regained it he could easily have stayed if he wanted. He didn't need to leave for the sake of his career, in the sense that he was back in the team. He didn't just leave because he felt Rafa didn't love him - he left for more money, moved from a club (not a team, yet) in trouble to a team on the rise, playing somewhere with an advantageous tax regime that also happened to be his home country.

And Torres, well, for me he was the most exciting Liverpool striker since Rush. I haven't forgotten Fowler but somehow Torres was, for a short while, even more exciting. I think he was the best striker in the world and, for all Fowler's brilliance and despite the fact I loved watching him play in the early days, I don't think he ever unequivocally demonstrated the same.

Alonso wanted to leave. Torres wanted to leave. Mascherano wanted to leave. Funny that, it's almost like there's a pattern.

So it seems strange to me that one is vilified and hated while another is lionised and loved. There's room for nuance.

[Rich]

None taken Rich.

I just have felt since Rafa left that we moved the goalposts of expectations. If you don't get how I feel about the league title being an obsession then I cannot explain it any better.

Yes, Managers have tried and failed since 1990, but we have never had that same movement that Utd had in their quest for what they dubbed 'The Holy Grail'. Well all I want is our quest for the 'Holy Grail' to be just that, not a stepping stone journey because I don't believe that will work - I want Gerrard to be a PL winner...I want the likes of Pepe, Suarez and Agger to win the PL in their time here. Football waits for no one and this gradual building process should be secondary to the main task which is here and now - get the players in who can come straight in and get us challenging.

Too much to ask I know. Unrealistic? Deluded. Whatever.

Unrealistic

It will be a terrible shame for Gerrard but Carragher deserved a winners' medal and he isn't going to get one.

If our owners spunked a shed load more cash then we'd be in danger of imploding just as we nearly did with H&G.

[Fredo]

Alonso broke his ankle, was out for 3 months and he couldn't rediscover his form throughout the remainder of that year.

[Neil Young]

Yes, he had a good excuse for the poor form, no doubt about that.

[Tee]

Unrealistic

It will be a terrible shame for Gerrard but Carragher deserved a winners' medal and he isn't going to get one.

If our owners spunked a shed load more cash then we'd be in danger of imploding just as we nearly did with H&G.

Maybe, but they have already spunked a shed load and all we have to show for it so far is Suarez.

Sturridge looks good as does Coutinho but there is a lot more expected from all the others, some of whom quite frankly have been ****e and not even fit to wear the shirt IMO.

We have invested money poorly, made poor decisions on and off teh pitch and now ther eis a glimmer of hope again we must act fast and build on it or next summer we lose our second best player.

[Tee]

Alonso broke his ankle, was out for 3 months and he couldn't rediscover his form throughout the remainder of that year.

Yes, he had a good excuse for the poor form, no doubt about that.

He went through an indifferent spell but it was understandable given his injuries. And once fully fit he showed what he is all about and has got even better since. A Rolls Royce footballer if ever I saw one.

[Neil Young]

[James P]

If you look at Chelsea then they have loaned out so many excellent young players that that team of loaned out players could challenge for a CL place. If they don't keep them then they can sell them and make big profits.

They have done the right thing. Loaned out the players they can't give playing time. They know what they are doing.

Man C isn't a sacking club and have a clear long term vision. Chelsea have so many excellent players that if they it was allowed then they would have two squads challenging for fourth place.

Seriously, Arn? Chelsea, who have had 10 managers in ten years under Abramovich, which will become 11 when they end the farce that is Rafa's 'interim' appointment? Who sacked Mourinho and Ancelotti, the two most successful managers of that period? The Chief Exec of the LMA referred to their treatment of managers as 'a serious embarrassment'.

And the suggestion that they could put out two teams capable of competing for CL places is pretty daft when their first choice squad finished sixth last year, is struggling to finish top four this year, was only in the CL because they fluked their way to winning it, and then set the record for going out earlier than any other reigning champions.

The fact is that throwing money at a club without a coherent plan really doesn't work. Chelsea are unravelling, City are 15 points adrift of defending a title they barely won last year. Clubs like Villa, QPR and Sunderland have spent huge sums of money in recent years, and look where they are. On a more extreme note, look at Leeds and Portsmouth, and what happens when extravagant spending fails to deliver success.

As much as I want a return to the success of the eighties, I want it done in a sustainable, sensible way. If that takes a few years, it'll be frustrating but I'll wait.

[RichC]

good post