Liverpool Defence

[Chazza]

[ame]https://twitter.com/DanKennett/status/526374563962429441[/ame]

[RichC]

I'd say that gives an idea where the problems lie!

How many goals this season have been from direct defensive errors or indecision quite a few I'd imagine.

[McDermotX]

Could argue all goals, everywhere, are from defensive errors.

What's the criteria here ?

All I know is we're ****e at the back.......don't need no table to tell me

[RichC]

it's the daft switching off from the CBs and to a lesser extent the keeper that drive me mad - the West Ham game was disgraceful and until we start cutting out the daft brain dead mistakes we seem to make time and again it's going to hard to solve our issues.

Long and the short of it Skrtel should be dropped and whilst Lovren has only been here a short while he doesn't look any better either.

[DannyMan2006]

Worth pointing out, only 6 teams have conceded less.

Another point though, Southampton have conceded the least, despite losing their "defensive rock" and "key organiser" Dejan Lovren.

Yes we are poor at set pieces, but I think we will get a grip soon enough and we'll start to look more solid. Take those goals away and we aren't actually conceding too many.

I think that come Xmas we'll be conceding less and scoring more - the lack of goals being as much an issue as those conceded.

[G]

They didn't lose him, Fonte is still there

[DannyMan2006]

Ha ha.... They've lost Chambers, Shaw and. Lovren all heralded as being part of a solid team. I think the key was always having Wanyama and Schniderlin in front. Morgans actually a Liverpool fan, would have been worth a bid. No surprise he was the one Pochettino wanted.

[danperkins]

Class player and would be a great buy.

[Hemingway]

I'd say that gives an idea where the problems lie!

How many goals this season have been from direct defensive errors or indecision quite a few I'd imagine.

Actually, I think it's a red herring.

"Direct defensive errors" makes it sound like a personnel problem the system/manager can't legislate for, but the chart contradicts that idea. If making mistakes was simply a matter of individual quality, that chart would track the actual table. It doesn't. The top half of the chart has us, Arsenal, Tottenham, Everton, and Swansea, all of which play progressive football (and Newcastle, who are just terrible at everything). The bottom half has Chelsea, West Ham, West Brom, Villa, Stoke, all of which play fairly negative football (and City, who are just good at everything). That there are some good teams making a lot of mistakes and some bad teams making few mistakes indicates both that mistakes are probably not just a product of individual quality but also of system, and that mistakes are not a particularly useful stat. Seems to me the chart is just a proxy for how much a manager focuses on setting up and protecting their defence.

Obviously we do make a lot of errors and some of the more egregious ones could be cut down, but any defenders playing in our system will make and get punished for an unusually high number of errors unless we change some systematic things about the way we play.

[RichC]

I think if we were playing the "progressive football" of last year then I'd agree however we're not playing progressive football and the system certainly wasn't to blame for the lazy switched off efforts for the first two goals West Ham scored for example.

Currently the football is slow and a little ponderous which perhaps puts more pressure on the defenders but they make individual errors that you don't see at clubs looking to challenge for the title or top 4.

It's not all the players fault I will give you that there does seem to a general disconnect in the side at the moment perhaps too many new faces and changing a system which served us well last season.

[Hemingway]

We're not playing quite as adventurously, granted (and we're actually making fewer errors, too - we're 5th in the PL, which is high but down from last year's first). But I don't think we've become any more structured or focused on protecting the back four, which is more my point. The "slow and ponderous" aspect to the way we're playing seems like it has more to do with replacing the Suarez-Sturridge partnership with Balotelli on his own, which is obviously going to be a poor imitation, as opposed to BR really changing his system or the way he sets up a team. Just because we're playing more dourly doesn't mean we're setting up the side with protecting the back four in mind. And that's fine, but it's the surest way to get something like that errors statistic down. (By the way, I'm not actually criticising BR here - it's more the statistic that I'm taking issue with.)

Anyway, my point about that stat's inherent relation to the system aside, I agree that we're still ultimately making too many individual errors. I don't think anyone could really argue that point We may never get down to a level that's really acceptable, but there's no reason some of the egregious ones (like the West Ham ones you cite) need to continually happen.

[G]

I'll put this here, click the link cos the tweets aren't embedding for some reason.

The poor performance of Martin Skrtel against Real Madrid on Tuesday night may offer a surprise solution to Liverpool’s defensive woes, writes Jack Lusby.

Liverpool went in to Tuesday night’s Champions League group clash in Madrid with a bleak outlook, not helped by the starting 11 served up by manager Brendan Rodgers — unflatteringly labelled a ‘B team’ by many quarters.

A back four of Javier Manquillo, Martin Skrtel, Kolo Toure and Alberto Moreno lined up behind Emre Can, Lucas Leiva, Joe Allen in the midfield, with Adam Lallana and Lazar Markovic supporting lone striker Fabio Borini.

This was against a Madrid side featuring the usual names: Cristiano Ronaldo, Isco, James Rodriguez, Toni Kroos, Karim Benzema, and with Gareth Bale on the bench.

To much surprise, it was the plucky performance of this so-called weakened Reds side that has drawn the plaudits, with Madrid winning by a slight one-goal margin.

At the heart of this display was that of Liverpool’s central defensive partnership. However, one half outperformed the other significantly.

With Dejan Lovren left out, it was the wayward performance of his oft-partner, Skrtel, in the Reds defence that could see Rodgers tinker once more in Saturday’s Premier League encounter against Chelsea.

Is a misguided Skrtel the issue?

Skrtel vs. Madrid

With the disappointing form of Lovren so far since his £20 million summer move from Southampton, there was no surprise when the Croat was dropped against Madrid.

Together, Lovren and Skrtel have looked a disastrous defensive partnership, lacking in equal measures both perception and initiative.

Skrtel has, so far, looked the more effective physical defender, with his average of 14 defensive actions per game in the league the most of any Liverpool player, according to Squawka, and these qualities are to be commended.

However, as the Slovakia captain’s performance demonstrated on Tuesday night showed, these actions — mainly blocks and clearances — are often made in last-ditch circumstances based on previous errors in judgment.

Skrtel’s Madrid performance was marred with concentration issues, and this proved nearly costly, as the defender consistently failed to track runs and mark tightly; against players of the calibre of Ronaldo, this could have proved devastating.

https://twitter.com/JanuszESPN/statu...31997149954049

https://twitter.com/mattladson/statu...59996722020353

Furthermore, this poor marking is paired with a propensity for errors at costly moments.

Surprisingly, also according to Squawka, out of the calamitous partnership of Skrtel and Lovren, it is the former that has made the most defensive errors so far in the league for Liverpool; Skrtel has made three, with Lovren lapsing drastically twice.

Skrtel made one such error early on against Madrid.



Skrtel’s terrible touch gifted the ball to Benzema whose attempt on goal was, fortunately for Skrtel, saved by Simon Mignolet.

The initial distance between Skrtel and Benzema is frightening.

There were other common problems too, such as Skrtel’s pass selection which often saw the ball arrive at teammates under pressure.

Then there was the trademark reckless, late challenge that earned him a booking and gave away a free kick in a dangerous position early in the second half. We see this every week from Skrtel.

Comparing last season’s output to the current term shows an alarming upturn in the amount of errors Skrtel is making at the heart of defence. Last season, the defender made four defensive errors in 36 appearances, and looks set to top this in disastrous fashion this season.

Lovren too, who made just one defensive error for the Saints last season in 31 games, continuing this drop in concentration between the pair this term.

However, it is the player who excelled in Madrid that may point to which of the two should be facing the drop for the Reds in the coming weeks.

Kolo Toure – and Jose Fonte

The star turn of Tuesday night’s defeat was that of Ivory Coast veteran Toure.

A man possessed, Toure kept Madrid at bay at times single-handedly, with a phenomenal defensive output.

https://twitter.com/Squawka/status/529759413444567040

https://twitter.com/WhoScored/status/529938862781759489

With Skrtel, Toure’s partner for the night, floundering in the former Manchester City man’s natural right-sided role, Rodgers should be looking at options to replace the Slovak, not Toure.

It is clear that Lovren is a defender who needs a dominant partner to hold his hand—at Southampton, this was Portuguese centre-back Jose Fonte.

https://twitter.com/UltraDefensive/s...81256613408768

With Ronald Koeman’s side flourishing defensively, with just five goals conceded from 10 Premier League games, Fonte’s leadership and organisation have come to the fore; at Liverpool and alongside Skrtel, Lovren has so far been lacking this support.

Toure is a player who possesses these skills, alongside a phenomenal determination and a vital experience, and may prove an important partner for Lovren—Rodgers’ clear favourite—in moving forward.

Chelsea

Looking forward, then, to Liverpool’s next Premier League game, home to Jose Mourinho’s Chelsea, Rodgers should look to base his team selection on this proud defensive display by Toure.


It has been debated thoroughly of late that Liverpool are lacking a defensive leader this season, with even the sale of Daniel Agger being lamented — but for all of his loyalty, the Dane’s form had dropped significantly under Rodgers.

The lack of authority exuded by Mignolet requires a centre-back to organise and dictate.

Lovren was, supposedly, this player, with the manager praising his “leadership,” on his summer signing.

Rodgers did similar when he signed Toure the previous summer, claiming the former Arsenal man was “a character” who “offers great leadership on the field.”

Spot the fallacy between those two.

With Rodgers arguably basing his team selection with one eye on a key league fixture against Chelsea in mind, the performance of Toure will have given the Ulsterman food for thought — the Ivorian must now start on Saturday.

This should be alongside Lovren, a player who clearly need guidance and assurance, and the pair performed comfortably in the League Cup tie against Swansea last week.

It was billed as a rollover, Liverpool throwing in the towel, but a plucky performance, and none least by Toure, will have given Rodgers plenty of positives to draw upon.

This should start with replacing Skrtel on Saturday.

http://www.thisisanfield.com/2014/11/wayward-skrtel-highlights-liverpool-defensive-future-madrid/

[Norbs]

Chris Lusby

[cream]

Toure is definitely out best defender, it's criminal he isn't playing more often.

[Chris]

This was his worst bit last night :



I dont actually think theres much wrong with the bottom bit, you think a guys going to shoot so you slide and try to stop it, if Ronaldo whacks it in on his left and Skrtel stood up he'd be criticised for not diving at him. The top bit though sums him up, he just does his own thing and I think he's a huge issue, that said he did pretty well last night bar the odd occasion, you dont only concede 1 there without doing a lot right defensively.