Alisson Becker

[Mark79]

Which was my point in the first place.




Damn, I had my response to this all prepped in my head on the way to work, but a: don't want to prove Dom's point above, b: things have escalated since.

(Although to clarify, I meant that Reina started to find form again in his final few months (5 clean sheets in 7),compared to the previous few years)

[Mark79]

I did bother reading mate, and can see the logic of your reasoning. A few were saying it - the evidence was clearly limited (& as we’ve seen most likely far too limited), but you weren’t alone in inferring here & it was a fairly widely accepted thing even amongst the posters that like to believe themselves more discerning here.


You’re correct, Reina’s form defo was best in his initial years & dipped post Valero. Not sure the need to rewrite the prevalent discourse at the time with the benefit of hindsight achieves tbh- Of course we know better now but you’ve admitted that & the responses to your post essentially are the type that shut down debate in a decreasing community.

well said

Is that what he said tho? And from a fan’s perspective how are we to judge coaches’s performances other than via the players?

Again, thanks for actually reading what I was saying

[RedReet]

Such staunchly detailed arguments for something people know absolutely nothing about.

The Internet in microcosm.

Which was my point in the first place.

I don’t agree that the issues were debatable. Each keeper became increasingly erratic and error prone over the course of being here. I don’t think any of them left as better keeper than when they arrived.

Reina only had 2 coaches after Valero. Mike Kelly, who was only here as long as Hodgson was and Achterberg. Reina’s best form was in his first 4 years (under Ochotorena and Valero) not his final few months. His last few years at Liverpool saw a big decline from him.

Mignolet was reportedly Achterbergs choice and I don’t remember him being so error prone at Sunderland or think he improved while at Liverpool.

Karius did show improvement before that final, but only on his own initial up and down Liverpool form, not on his form in Germany by all accounts.

As I say, my reasons for doubting Achterberg weren’t based on random guesswork. It was after seeing 3 successive 1st team keepers struggle over a period of about 9 years since he’d been coach.

Damn, I had my response to this all prepped in my head on the way to work, but a: don't want to prove Dom's point above, b: things have escalated since.

(Although to clarify, I meant that Reina started to find form again in his final few months (5 clean sheets in 7),compared to the previous few years)

[Mark79]

Coaches should be accountable for their own performance as a coach. Player performance is just a handy surrogate for someone from the outside wanting to make a judgment with highly limited information as to how it may or may not relate to the actions/inaction of the coach.

Nobody's saying he had no part to play. Just that the idea he was THE problem was baseless as ****.

Is this not what we as fans judge coaches and managers on all the time?

I'm sure you have opinions on LFC managers, Solskjaer, Silva, Emery, etc.
What exactly are you ultimately forming those on, if not what you see on the pitch?

And no, I never said JA was THE problem. Just that the concern was he was the constant factor, so maybe that was part of the issue.

[dom9]

Dom seemed to be, which started this Monday morning tussle.

Huh?

I've said no one has a clue.

[Kenneth]

Coaches should be accountable for their own performance as a coach. Player performance is just a handy surrogate for someone from the outside wanting to make a judgment with highly limited information as to how it may or may not relate to the actions/inaction of the coach.

Nobody's saying he had no part to play. Just that the idea he was THE problem was baseless as ****.

Dom seemed to be, which started this Monday morning tussle.

[Roboklopp]

Is that what he said tho? And from a fan’s perspective how are we to judge coaches’s performances other than via the players?

[Red_Polo]

Who are you talking to?



I don't think it's baseless for coaches to be accountable for players performance.



Yes, saying it was aclearly all Achterberg would be ridiculous. Nobody here has done that.



Anyway, done.

Coaches should be accountable for their own performance as a coach. Player performance is just a handy surrogate for someone from the outside wanting to make a judgment with highly limited information as to how it may or may not relate to the actions/inaction of the coach.

Nobody's saying he had no part to play. Just that the idea he was THE problem was baseless as ****.

[Roboklopp]

I did bother reading mate, and can see the logic of your reasoning. A few were saying it - the evidence was clearly limited (& as we’ve seen most likely far too limited), but you weren’t alone in inferring here & it was a fairly widely accepted thing even amongst the posters that like to believe themselves more discerning here.


You’re correct, Reina’s form defo was best in his initial years & dipped post Valero. Not sure the need to rewrite the prevalent discourse at the time with the benefit of hindsight achieves tbh- Of course we know better now but you’ve admitted that & the responses to your post essentially are the type that shut down debate in a decreasing community.

[Mark79]

You're debating the issues, are you not?

Players incapable of rising to a new challenge tend to deteriorate regardless of the quality of coaching. So any attribution of blame to JA is nearly completely baseless.

Concerns or raising questions, fine. As others have said the certainty around it was/is idiotic, 1+1=3 tosh.

Who are you talking to?

I don't think it's baseless for coaches to be accountable for players performance.

Yes, saying it was aclearly all Achterberg would be ridiculous. Nobody here has done that.

Anyway, done.

[Red_Polo]

You're debating the issues, are you not?

Players incapable of rising to a new challenge tend to deteriorate regardless of the quality of coaching. So any attribution of blame to JA is nearly completely baseless.

Concerns or raising questions, fine. As others have said the certainty around it was/is idiotic, 1+1=3 tosh.

[Buzzo]

Can be arsed to comment though

Know what I do with discussions I'm not interested in?
Nothing.

Fair enough mate

[Mark79]

CBA reading all the detail for that very reason. Klopps been with JA for 4-5 years and rates him. That’s all that matters.

Can be arsed to comment though

Know what I do with discussions I'm not interested in?
Nothing.

[Mark79]

Such staunchly detailed arguments for something people know absolutely nothing about.

The Internet in microcosm.

it's opinions, Dom. About Liverpool. On a Liverpool forum. If it's futile discussing such things then why don't we all just log off?

[Buzzo]

Such staunchly detailed arguments for something people know absolutely nothing about.

The Internet in microcosm.

CBA reading all the detail for that very reason. Klopps been with JA for 4-5 years and rates him. That’s all that matters.