Alisson Becker

[RedReet]

Such staunchly detailed arguments for something people know absolutely nothing about.

The Internet in microcosm.

Which was my point in the first place.

I don’t agree that the issues were debatable. Each keeper became increasingly erratic and error prone over the course of being here. I don’t think any of them left as better keeper than when they arrived.

Reina only had 2 coaches after Valero. Mike Kelly, who was only here as long as Hodgson was and Achterberg. Reina’s best form was in his first 4 years (under Ochotorena and Valero) not his final few months. His last few years at Liverpool saw a big decline from him.

Mignolet was reportedly Achterbergs choice and I don’t remember him being so error prone at Sunderland or think he improved while at Liverpool.

Karius did show improvement before that final, but only on his own initial up and down Liverpool form, not on his form in Germany by all accounts.

As I say, my reasons for doubting Achterberg weren’t based on random guesswork. It was after seeing 3 successive 1st team keepers struggle over a period of about 9 years since he’d been coach.

Damn, I had my response to this all prepped in my head on the way to work, but a: don't want to prove Dom's point above, b: things have escalated since.

(Although to clarify, I meant that Reina started to find form again in his final few months (5 clean sheets in 7),compared to the previous few years)

[Mark79]

I did bother reading mate, and can see the logic of your reasoning. A few were saying it - the evidence was clearly limited (& as we’ve seen most likely far too limited), but you weren’t alone in inferring here & it was a fairly widely accepted thing even amongst the posters that like to believe themselves more discerning here.


You’re correct, Reina’s form defo was best in his initial years & dipped post Valero. Not sure the need to rewrite the prevalent discourse at the time with the benefit of hindsight achieves tbh- Of course we know better now but you’ve admitted that & the responses to your post essentially are the type that shut down debate in a decreasing community.

well said

Is that what he said tho? And from a fan’s perspective how are we to judge coaches’s performances other than via the players?

Again, thanks for actually reading what I was saying

[Mark79]

Which was my point in the first place.




Damn, I had my response to this all prepped in my head on the way to work, but a: don't want to prove Dom's point above, b: things have escalated since.

(Although to clarify, I meant that Reina started to find form again in his final few months (5 clean sheets in 7),compared to the previous few years)

[Red_Polo]

Is this not what we as fans judge coaches and managers on all the time?

I'm sure you have opinions on LFC managers, Solskjaer, Silva, Emery, etc.
What exactly are you ultimately forming those on, if not what you see on the pitch?

And no, I never said JA was THE problem. Just that the concern was he was the constant factor, so maybe that was part of the issue.

Yes, it is. Difference is that a head coach / manager is responsible for a huge number of things with a high degree of autonomy and we have a huge number of surrogates as evidence with which to judge them against.

A GK coach works with a lower level of autonomy and there are such an extremely small number of surrogates to use as evidence that it becomes almost total guesswork.

I didn't infer you said JA was the problem. I do however agree with the assertion you took issue with, where it was pointed out that those who did hold him to blame were making 1+1=3.

[Mark79]

Yes, it is. Difference is that a head coach / manager is responsible for a huge number of things with a high degree of autonomy and we have a huge number of surrogates as evidence with which to judge them against.

A GK coach works with a lower level of autonomy and there are such an extremely small number of surrogates to use as evidence that it becomes almost total guesswork.

I didn't infer you said JA was the problem. I do however agree with the assertion you took issue with, where it was pointed out that those who did hold him to blame were making 1+1=3.

I only disagreed with that in so much as that's not what I or everyone who was uncertain about JA were actually doing.

[Roboklopp]

Yes, it is. Difference is that a head coach / manager is responsible for a huge number of things with a high degree of autonomy and we have a huge number of surrogates as evidence with which to judge them against.

A GK coach works with a lower level of autonomy and there are such an extremely small number of surrogates to use as evidence that it becomes almost total guesswork.

I didn't infer you said JA was the problem. I do however agree with the assertion you took issue with, where it was pointed out that those who did hold him to blame were making 1+1=3.

There are fewer examples to judge him by but they have far clearer correlation.

Like I’ve said, I feel the need to defend Pepe79 here.

[Norbs]

This is the daftest discussion on here for a long while, and the bar is set pretty high

Merry Xmas you Wallies

[Red_Polo]

I only disagreed with that in so much as that's not what I or everyone who was uncertain about JA were actually doing.

Was specifically in reference to the line of argument about "criticism" of him rather than uncertainty, which is a very different and entirely reasonable thing if that's what you meant

Anyway this has all had us reprobates rambling on far too long. Have a good Chrimbo if I don't catch you matey

[Roboklopp]

This is the daftest discussion on here for a long while, and the bar is set pretty high

Merry Xmas you Wallies

We are arguing about the merit of the evidence we had for being wrong effectively.

[Buzzo]

We are arguing about the merit of the evidence we had for being wrong effectively.

But acknowledging it beautifully

[Assassin]

This is the daftest discussion on here for a long while, and the bar is set pretty high

Merry Xmas you Wallies

[Mark79]

Was specifically in reference to the line of argument about "criticism" of him rather than uncertainty, which is a very different and entirely reasonable thing if that's what you meant

Anyway this has all had us reprobates rambling on far too long. Have a good Chrimbo if I don't catch you matey

It is and you're right, what was supposed to be a straightforward acknowledgement of fair concerns turning out to be unnecessary somehow spiraled into a drawn out mess

Happy Christmas to you too

[memzey]

Anyway - that Alisson, what a ****ing keeper hey?

[SB]

This is the daftest discussion on here for a long while, and the bar is set pretty high

Merry Xmas you Wallies

Your welcome

[Norbs]

I was speaking authoritatively