Man U away

[dom9]

I agree that is also a factor yes.



The problem of just how much of a free market football business is, is due to multiple factors. All I'd like to see is a proper discussion from the football community about all of those factors.



That means discussion of ownership models, but it also means discussion of the costs of football, discussion of regulation of this market, discussion of the revenue side, which includes broadcasters and organisations like UEFA.



I think the discussion is focusing disproportionately on the billionaire status and nationality of owners at the moment.

Yep.

There needs to be a global solution really. That won't ever happen though.

[danperkins]

Let's be honest here.

We can all wax lyrical and pontificate about the rhetoric, but we're all part of the problem.

All of us.

If you've ever bought a Sky or other sports TV subscription, you're complicit.

If you buy the merch which changes throughout the season, you're complicit.

If you have never done any of that and you watch via streams, you're a cheapskate who is also complicit in lining some gangsters pockets on the back of the greed.

The money we collectively have funnelled through Sky and others has resulted in many of the best players on the planet playing in the Premier League and indeed LFC.

So which way do you want it?

It's easy to throw stones from your ivory tower, but you need to convince me that you're not part of the problem.

BTW, I've quoted your post but my point is aimed at every single one of us.

this is spot on to be fair.

[Kenneth]

I agree that is also a factor yes.

The problem of just how much of a free market football business is, is due to multiple factors. All I'd like to see is a proper discussion from the football community about all of those factors.

That means discussion of ownership models, but it also means discussion of the costs of football, discussion of regulation of this market, discussion of the revenue side, which includes broadcasters and organisations like UEFA.

I think the discussion is focusing disproportionately on the billionaire status and nationality of owners at the moment.

Who really has the authority to address any of it? Government will probably assume it does, but on what basis?

[Doc_Piptorious]

Where was Carras voice when we had Hicks and Gillette as owners ? Happy to sign the six figure weekly contracts back then without a thought about the fans, funny how it’s changed now his employers at Sky have been put under some pressure.

Where was his voice yesterday when the crowd inside the ground were chanting "you scouse *******s" as they aimed a firework as the window of the tv box.


Where was his voice yesterday when the "peaceful" protesters where doing their "Always the victims" and "murderers" chants both inside the ground and outside it.

For a "peaceful" protest against their own owners, those ManU "supporters" seemed to sing a lot about Hillsborough yesterday.

Guess he never heard or saw any of that. Guess he never heard Neville standing beside him saying repeatedly how FSG furloughed the Liverpool players


And as you said, where was he when fans of the club he played for were booing H&G and also the man they appointed in Hodgson? Oh right Carragher was the guy after a game that was shouting angrily at the crowd and turning his back to the crowd doing the sit in at Anfield.


But now he is all "we" drove previous American owners out of Anfield and "We" can do it again in a week.


Funny how so much seems to always come back to FSG with Carragher and Neville, even when what is happening in front of them is to do with another club.


Only time Carragher opens his gop about Liverpool is when the team wins someone and he is there in front of the camera with lots of "us" and "we" as Sky's token Liverpool man, and the rest of the time he is just sticking the knife in when we are not doing well and the "we" and "us" is replaced with "they" or "them"

[Buzzo]

The Man U protests don’t hold any water at all. They covered it on MOTD and Utd have spent £700m net over the same period we have spent £200m. They had some guy from a Utd fanzine on, and when asked he couldn’t give a single decent reason they were bad owners other than business model. When asked for 3 things that could happen to improve he couldn’t give one.

The protest yesterday was about spoilt Utd fans who got used to winning the League not happy as it has been 8 years. They don’t care about the good of the game, they care ONLY about the good of Man U.

I doubt we are all that much better.

Genuine reform in the game will make it much much harder to win trophies. Genuine reform is what the clubs not included in the super league want and maybe deserve. Fans of the big clubs are utterly spoilt, the money to pick and choose from players from these smaller clubs yet they have the audacity to moan about the hand they have been dealt.

A true protest would involve all fans. Not just the bloated spoilt fans at the top.

I found the whole thing embarrassing.

[Doc_Piptorious]

Let's be honest here.

We can all wax lyrical and pontificate about the rhetoric, but we're all part of the problem.

All of us.

If you've ever bought a Sky or other sports TV subscription, you're complicit.

If you buy the merch which changes throughout the season, you're complicit.

If you have never done any of that and you watch via streams, you're a cheapskate who is also complicit in lining some gangsters pockets on the back of the greed.

The money we collectively have funnelled through Sky and others has resulted in many of the best players on the planet playing in the Premier League and indeed LFC.

So which way do you want it?

It's easy to throw stones from your ivory tower, but you need to convince me that you're not part of the problem.

BTW, I've quoted your post but my point is aimed at every single one of us.

By that logic nobody that has ever spent a penny on anything to do with the club should be able to open their mouth.

Buy club merch? No opinion you are part of the problem


Get a subscription to any network that shows the games? No opinion you are part of the problem


Buy a ticket and go to the game? No opinion you are part of the problem


Don't spend a penny ever on the club but find a way to watch for free? No opinion you are part of the problem and also a cheapskate.


The only logical thing for anyone that agrees with what you say is to just walk away from anything to do with the club and then they are not part of the problem.

Seems to me that a hell of a lot of the narrative right now is being set by Sky and it's employees. It gets spouted and treated as fact straight away when even a cursory check shows much of it is off the cuff bull**** at best or revisionist self serving spiel at worst.


So what do you think should be done? Government intervention? Removal of the free market side of the game? Wage/spending caps and similar caps on sponsorship/ club earning? Some UK version of the 50+1?


Not trying to have a poke at you, just genuinely curious as to what your take is in terms of the direction(s) fans could/should move in and how they potentially could do so. Aside from what we have seen so far with the likes of the SOS and other such movements from our own fanbase.

[Exiled_red]

The Man U protests don’t hold any water at all. They covered it on MOTD and Utd have spent £700m net over the same period we have spent £200m. They had some guy from a Utd fanzine on, and when asked he couldn’t give a single decent reason they were bad owners other than business model. When asked for 3 things that could happen to improve he couldn’t give one.

The protest yesterday was about spoilt Utd fans who got used to winning the League not happy as it has been 8 years. They don’t care about the good of the game, they care ONLY about the good of Man U.

I doubt we are all that much better.

Genuine reform in the game will make it much much harder to win trophies. Genuine reform is what the clubs not included in the super league want and maybe deserve. Fans of the big clubs are utterly spoilt, the money to pick and choose from players from these smaller clubs yet they have the audacity to moan about the hand they have been dealt.

A true protest would involve all fans. Not just the bloated spoilt fans at the top.

I found the whole thing embarrassing.

I was talking to a friend about the Superleague and the greed of clubs and distribution of money and one of the great inequalities of the PL is highlighted by the fact that the likes of Everton, Aston Villa, Newcastle etc have been able to sell out their ~40k capacity grounds largely week in week out for the last 20 years and aren't even close to being able to compete on a serious basis.

Ok the likes of Leicester and West Ham are up there at the moment, but even if they made the CL if one of the 'big six' clubs come in for their top players in the next couple of years the can hold out for a good price but they are more or less powerless to stop them leaving. So when that happens (or they find that they don't have the squad size to play 2 games a week) they slip down the table and the top six re-exert their dominance.

[dom9]

By that logic nobody that has ever spent a penny on anything to do with the club should be able to open their mouth.



Buy club merch? No opinion you are part of the problem





Get a subscription to any network that shows the games? No opinion you are part of the problem





Buy a ticket and go to the game? No opinion you are part of the problem





Don't spend a penny ever on the club but find a way to watch for free? No opinion you are part of the problem and also a cheapskate.





The only logical thing for anyone that agrees with what you say is to just walk away from anything to do with the club and then they are not part of the problem.



Seems to me that a hell of a lot of the narrative right now is being set by Sky and it's employees. It gets spouted and treated as fact straight away when even a cursory check shows much of it is off the cuff bull**** at best or revisionist self serving spiel at worst.





So what do you think should be done? Government intervention? Removal of the free market side of the game? Wage/spending caps and similar caps on sponsorship/ club earning? Some UK version of the 50+1?





Not trying to have a poke at you, just genuinely curious as to what your take is in terms of the direction(s) fans could/should move in and how they potentially could do so. Aside from what we have seen so far with the likes of the SOS and other such movements from our own fanbase.

I also think that if you're a long term fully paid up subscriber to Sky, complaining about Gary Neville complaining about the Glazers and FSG is not really any different to Gary Neville complaining about the Glazers and FSG.

You're paying his wages, just as the Glazers paid his, and there is an element of hypocrisy there. You've been lapping up that product for years.

Does that mean you're not entitled to opinion? Of course not. In the same the Neville is entitled to his opinion.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I think people should step back and think about their own role in how we've arrived to where we are.

What's the solution? I don't know. I think it's to late and too ****ed to be fixed.

I'm not sure fan ownership is the answer either. Look at the Spanish basket cases. The elections and egos there. They are as much part of the problem as the Glazers imo.

[danperkins]

Myself and dom do not agree on alot but I do think he has a very valid point. IMO what he was rightly alluding to, is by we the fans signing up to exorbitant sky packages, buying massively over priced jerseys and paying ridiculously high tickets prices.. we have contributed to this push for greed. With more demand comes higher prices. If fans refuse to spend 70 quid on a jersey, refuse to price match ticket prices & decided they will just watch match of the day instead of signing up to the over priced Sky & BT packages but prices would fall... they would have to.

I include myself in this as I pay a small fortune for Sky & a weekend for me to go over to see us play is so expensive but I have done it many times. I have actually stopped buying official LFC jerseys as the price is a joke & just buy replicas instead for a fraction of the price. But I recognize that I am part of the problem and my desire to see live games or watch premium sky packages whilst wearing my over priced LFC strip is a huge part of this cycle of greed. For me, I sacrifice/cut back on other things so I have the luxury of paying silly money to watch live games, that is how I justify the spending but yup I am part of the issue. I know it's a rip off, do I still do it.

[frank the tank]

I got my subscription when i got given my work phone on a 2 yr business contract. A free years Premier League subscription it said...that was 5 years ago now and it's still working. That contract has long since ended, and Ive switched jobs in the meantime. But my login just keeps ticking

Ive defeated SKY on my own.

[frank the tank]

Myself and dom do not agree on alot but I do think he has a very valid point. IMO what he was rightly alluding to, is by we the fans signing up to exorbitant sky packages, buying massively over priced jerseys and paying ridiculously high tickets prices.. we have contributed to this push for greed. With more demand comes higher prices. If fans refuse to spend 70 quid on a jersey, refuse to price match ticket prices & decided they will just watch match of the day instead of signing up to the over priced Sky & BT packages but prices would fall... they would have to.

I include myself in this as I pay a small fortune for Sky & a weekend for me to go over to see us play is so expensive but I have done it many times. I have actually stopped buying official LFC jerseys as the price is a joke & just buy replicas instead for a fraction of the price. But I recognize that I am part of the problem and my desire to see live games or watch premium sky packages whilst wearing my over priced LFC strip is a huge part of this cycle of greed. For me, I sacrifice/cut back on other things so I have the luxury of paying silly money to watch live games, that is how I justify the spending but yup I am part of the issue. I know it's a rip off, do I still do it.

I know what you are saying. The business model for most club owners is based on having this "brand" loyalty and taking advantage of it. It would be like owning a car company and knowing however ****in **** the cars you make, the people would come back for more regardless.

I made a point after the ESL got cancelled saying that fans need to start up some kind of supporters unions now if they want meaningful change with things like ticket prices, kick-off times, subscription costs etc.......only through unity would there be proper change.

I don't like the rhetoric being pushed that Sky sports has saved football. And that this european super league thing was evil and we can all celebrate now that it got cancelled and we can "go back to normal".

In reality, Sky and the Premier League have slowly killed a lot of what was good about football. They talked about how "the dream would have ended" for all of the non big-6 clubs in the football pyramid. But that is bollocks. Each and every one of them could still have been champions of England. The big 6 clubs were sneaky cunts. But the other 14 teams in the premier league would have jumped on this had they been invited too. No ****in doubt.

There is a lot that is **** about football. As all LFC fans, we are still watching all of our games (well a lot of us, people like Nev have checked out until next season ) hoping we somehow scrape into 4th position. How ****in **** is that??? 4th?!!!?!? But somehow Sky, UEFA, the Premier League et al have made this 'achievement' bigger than a trophy. And good on them. Because if they didn't, we'd have all stopped showing such an interest back in Feb. Fans of clubs like Norwich think that they have something amazing to look forward to next year in a near-certain relegation battle. And hopefully they stay up and establish themselves as a club in the premier league that will never actually compete for anything. From next season onwards, they can look forward to resting players in domestic cup matches because a better chance at three points (or even one) is better than a cup run. Thanks Sky.

This isn't me trying to say that the ESL was a good thing. I think the competition concept was kind of **** in a few ways. For one, no relegation just makes the thing meaningless very quickly. Ask any supporter of a rugby league team that isn't going to get to compete for the grand final. The writing is on the wall for the season after about 4 or 5 games. Also, a "league" of 10 teams is bull**** if it doesn't have a meaningful trophy at the end. Instead, these cunts would have then gone into some sort of knockout thing at the end. Again, very similar to rugby league......which is a **** competition.

And the decision of the clubs to go for the ESL was based on greed. No doubt about that. But a business has to try to find new ways of increasing revenue and turnover. That is the point of a business.

The concept of ****ing over UEFA, I would be supportive of that. And Fifa too.

[Doc_Piptorious]

I also think that if you're a long term fully paid up subscriber to Sky, complaining about Gary Neville complaining about the Glazers and FSG is not really any different to Gary Neville complaining about the Glazers and FSG.

You're paying his wages, just as the Glazers paid his, and there is an element of hypocrisy there.

Does that mean you're not entitled to opinion? Of course not. In the same the Neville is entitled to his opinion.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I think people should step back and think about their own role in how we've arrived to where we are.

What's the solution? I don't know. I think it's to late and too ****ed to be fixed.

I'm not sure fan ownership is the answer either. Look at the Spanish basket cases. The elections and egos there. They are as much part of the problem as the Glazers imo.

No offence but I think the we all need to look at ourselves is a little too simplistic.

How a situation comes about or is let come about is of course important because if you do not realise or acknowledge mistakes, then one can never rectify them.

The owners being a problem now is a bit simplistic for my liking as well. There seems to be a bit of a myth that the nasty foreign owners are the issue and we need to get back to the good honest British owners of yesteryear (Not saying you are saying that, just seen it said by "experts" on tv).

Those honest hard working British owners of yesteryear were no better than the mega wealthy owners of now. They just so happened to live in an era where there was less media scrutiny and far less chance of any real public resistence. If the same owners were around now with the same commercial opportunities, they would have their snouts in any trough they could get them into.


I also think that yes everyone should have an opinion if they so choose, but some opinions should be held to different standards, especially those "offering" opinions when they have vested interests in what they are offering those opinions on, and also when those opinions are being presented as factual when a simple fact check will show otherwise.

Yes the fans should look at themselves and the part they have played and can play, but I also think that those with vested interests and/or who are essentially rabble rousing using the reach of a global media outlet should be made accountable for their words and efforts.

Yes let all have an opinion, but also let each stand and be fully responsible for what comes out of their mouths.

If I say something really dumb on here (again), then someone is going to say it is dumb or ask me to back up what I said or in the case of the some they will attack the poster and not the post. I am just a schmuck on a fan site with no real pull or sway over what others do, so presumably any comeback (assuming nothing I say is libelous, malicious or threatening) will be proportionate to how factual what I say is, how reasonable it sounds and to the fact I am just a schmuck talking on a fan site with no real chance of what I say influencing many if any at all.

Then we get those with vested interests. Those who are onscreen professing to be experts of business, morality and everything inbetween. We get those that pull the strings of those onscreen. We get those who sit in the boardrooms of clubs and so on. They all have opinions, some factual some ignorant of the facts, some deliberate in their lack of facts. It is here that I think a greater scrutiny is needed, a scrunity and responsibility that is proportionate to the level of reach and sway their words have or could potentially have.



The arguement of if you have sky or had sky, that your opinion on Gary Neveille having an opinion is somehow less valid is too simplistic as well. Where would that approach stop?

What about music? We all have bought music at some point so when a musical artist does something greed orientated or something really terrible are we all at fault?


I am sure lots of here watched films and tv shows made or funded by the Weinsteins. Does that make us all enablers of Harvey Weinstein and what he did to people? Afterall by paying money to watch those films years ago we helped him to have a lifestyle with the money and influence to do terrible terrible things.


I think at some point it has to boil down to wrong being wrong and those doing the wrongs being who sould be held accountable and those who are affiliated to them that try to muddy the waters with need to be held accountable for their words.


Let's be honest. As fans, supporters or whatever we get called, we are not privy to a lot of the process of greed. We get to see the end results, we get to be there when the **** hits the fans , we get to be there when there is so much **** flung at the wall that **** looks normal as it is all that is there to see.

Those who see the **** get put on the wall piece by piece, those that see that process in it's early stages, they are the ones that are more accountable than the fans in my eyes. We are fans, we are consumers, we are sheep a lot of the time. But just because you are a sheep does not mean you always have to accept being led.


**** knows where this post is going now, I started typing then went and has some bangers and mash and came back thinking those sozzies were nice and starting typing again. Maybe I need to stop before I start calling for us sheep to turn into ornery goats and start chucking in Animal Farm references again.
Maybe the goats will clean the **** from the walls.

Who knows. All I know is I have Virgin media and not Sky and have somehow managed to not have a Sky subscription so far in my life, but I do have that Virgin account so I am one of the sods propping up UEFA and the X Factor so maybe the latter makes me the worst of all.

[dom9]

No offence but I think the we all need to look at ourselves is a little too simplistic.

How a situation comes about or is let come about is of course important because if you do not realise or acknowledge mistakes, then one can never rectify them.

The owners being a problem now is a bit simplistic for my liking as well. There seems to be a bit of a myth that the nasty foreign owners are the issue and we need to get back to the good honest British owners of yesteryear (Not saying you are saying that, just seen it said by "experts" on tv).

Those honest hard working British owners of yesteryear were no better than the mega wealthy owners of now. They just so happened to live in an era where there was less media scrutiny and far less chance of any real public resistence. If the same owners were around now with the same commercial opportunities, they would have their snouts in any trough they could get them into.


I also think that yes everyone should have an opinion if they so choose, but some opinions should be held to different standards, especially those "offering" opinions when they have vested interests in what they are offering those opinions on, and also when those opinions are being presented as factual when a simple fact check will show otherwise.

Yes the fans should look at themselves and the part they have played and can play, but I also think that those with vested interests and/or who are essentially rabble rousing using the reach of a global media outlet should be made accountable for their words and efforts.

Yes let all have an opinion, but also let each stand and be fully responsible for what comes out of their mouths.

If I say something really dumb on here (again), then someone is going to say it is dumb or ask me to back up what I said or in the case of the some they will attack the poster and not the post. I am just a schmuck on a fan site with no real pull or sway over what others do, so presumably any comeback (assuming nothing I say is libelous, malicious or threatening) will be proportionate to how factual what I say is, how reasonable it sounds and to the fact I am just a schmuck talking on a fan site with no real chance of what I say influencing many if any at all.

Then we get those with vested interests. Those who are onscreen professing to be experts of business, morality and everything inbetween. We get those that pull the strings of those onscreen. We get those who sit in the boardrooms of clubs and so on. They all have opinions, some factual some ignorant of the facts, some deliberate in their lack of facts. It is here that I think a greater scrutiny is needed, a scrunity and responsibility that is proportionate to the level of reach and sway their words have or could potentially have.



The arguement of if you have sky or had sky, that your opinion on Gary Neveille having an opinion is somehow less valid is too simplistic as well. Where would that approach stop?

What about music? We all have bought music at some point so when a musical artist does something greed orientated or something really terrible are we all at fault?


I am sure lots of here watched films and tv shows made or funded by the Weinsteins. Does that make us all enablers of Harvey Weinstein and what he did to people? Afterall by paying money to watch those films years ago we helped him to have a lifestyle with the money and influence to do terrible terrible things.


I think at some point it has to boil down to wrong being wrong and those doing the wrongs being who sould be held accountable and those who are affiliated to them that try to muddy the waters with need to be held accountable for their words.


Let's be honest. As fans, supporters or whatever we get called, we are not privy to a lot of the process of greed. We get to see the end results, we get to be there when the **** hits the fans , we get to be there when there is so much **** flung at the wall that **** looks normal as it is all that is there to see.

Those who see the **** get put on the wall piece by piece, those that see that process in it's early stages, they are the ones that are more accountable than the fans in my eyes. We are fans, we are consumers, we are sheep a lot of the time. But just because you are a sheep does not mean you always have to accept being led.


**** knows where this post is going now, I started typing then went and has some bangers and mash and came back thinking those sozzies were nice and starting typing again. Maybe I need to stop before I start calling for us sheep to turn into ornery goats and start chucking in Animal Farm references again.
Maybe the goats will clean the **** from the walls.

Who knows. All I know is I have Virgin media and not Sky and have somehow managed to not have a Sky subscription so far in my life, but I do have that Virgin account so I am one of the sods propping up UEFA and the X Factor so maybe the latter makes me the worst of all.

No offence, but I don't think you've understood my point.

I'm not oversimplifying anything. I'm saying we're all part of the problem, if not the cause.

I'm not talking about validity of opinions either but I am talking about hypocrisy.

But yeah, every year I personally come a little bit closer to sacking the whole thing off.

[Doc_Piptorious]

No offence, but I don't think you've understood my point.

I'm not oversimplifying anything. I'm saying we're all part of the problem, if not the cause.

I'm not talking about validity of opinions but I am talking about hypocrisy.

I got your point and it is not that I think you are wrong to say all are part of the problem along with mentioning the hypocrisy as you see it.

I just think it was too simplistic, or maybe too idealistic in nature

[fidget]

So what's the solution?