Midfield

[Irishnev]

At our level either "8's" should be more than capable of doing all that is required.

But clearly they can’t - Ox, Hendo, Jones and Milner have all been really poor on the left. Only Thiago and Naby have done well there and we know the problem with both of them....

[nebbers]

Mention of Kalvin Phillips this morning. Interesting. Haven't seen much since world cup.

[Doc_Piptorious]

Mention of Kalvin Phillips this morning. Interesting. Haven't seen much since world cup.

Meant to be only having a so so season for Leeds.

[Doc_Piptorious]

Ah the midfield.....right now it is a problem for us and for a couple of reasons:

1) Availability - we’ve spoken to death about this
2) Imbalance - this doesn’t mean that our midfield is unbalanced but rather we don’t have enough players who seamlessly slot into the role..... you could argue it is similar up front. This is the one thing City excel at - essentially plug and play regardless of injuries o rotation

Our midfield has 3 defined role:

- The deepest 6 who covers side to side, wins headers and stops counters at source. This is played superbly by Fabinho and Hendo is the nominal back up here. Hendo did really well in this role against sides where we have a lot of the ball but tracking runners isn’t his strong point and he is more effective going forward. None of the others are good as a replacement here - Morton was tried in a few games and Gini was the back up last season. I think he need to buy proper cover here - Zakaria for a small fee would give a lot if what Fab offers

- The left sided 8, this is the more defensive of the two 8s. This was Gini’s role and you could say it was the facilitator of the midfield. Always available (for the ball), never lose the ball, tactically astute to make up a double pivot when the right 8 was higher up. I think they saw Thiago as the replacement for Gini and he’d bring even more control - he has but he’s available a fraction of the time. The next best is Naby but again availability is a problem here. None of the rest are suited to this role because they are not disciplined enough - Ox, Hendo and Curtis all played there but the right side suits them better. I think that’s why Klopp has been playing Milner because he is more disciplined. I think we need cover here also - ideally someone who play as a 6 or as the left sided 8

- The right sided 8’s role has changed a bit this season. It seems to be even more attacking and Elliot was going really well there pre injury. This suits the skill set Hendo, Ox, Naby and Curtis the most. Box to box and interplay it with Trent and Mo - I think if everyone is fit then Klopp goes with Hendo here. The thing is his fitness and stamina aren’t what they were so we’ve seen him struggle to track runners and we’ve conceded a lot if goals down this channel. I think Elliot and Jones would cover this between them. Ox pre knee injury was excelling here.

So - let Milner leave on a free, Hendo takes his utility role. Sell Naby and Ox - it isnt going to happen for them. Buy a top midfielder who can play as the left 8 or deepest - Tchoumeni being linked.

Elliot, Hendo and Jones cover the right 8 over the season.
Thiago, Tchoumeni, Morton cover the left side
Fab and Tchoumeni voter the 6

We are putting square pegs in round holes - having available midfielders isn’t enough.....we need the right guys in the right part of the system to work

Think that is still one short, both in terms of quality and ability to suit a role.

Tchouameni would be a fantastic get as he can play in a few midifeld roles without a drop off in quality, though it is looking like being a box to box CM or a number 8 may be where his future lies.

Where I see a problem with your line ups is that there are a number of guys in it who could be out at the same time. Like if Fabinho and RThiago are out at the same time, then Tchouameni can only cover for one and there is a big drop off down to Morton.

Same with the RCM options. If Henderson is out at the same time as one of Thiago or Fabinho, then Tchouameni is again the cover that is not a big drop off, but all the rest are.


For me we need two in and three out as quality in depth is far more important that just numbers in depth something that becomes very clear if we look at City's squad compared to our squad.

Now they can spend a lot more than us, but in terms of squad size we have a far bigger squad than they do. Now we cannot compete with them in terms of what they can pay for a player and what they can pay a player, but if we trimmed our squad back in terms of numbers then surely we could try to have that bit more quality in the second string rather than lots of players who represent either a massive drop off on the guy ahead of them for the position or guys who are simply unreliable/untrusted.


Say we get Tchouameni and we add Zakaria as well for 7m or so now or get Zakaria on a free in the summer.

One is the big money punt on a guy who looks like he might be a seriously good player for years to come and one is a low cost punt on a guy who looks better than most of our current back ups for micfield but is a lot quicker and more physical than them (yes people will say Zakaria had a bad injury but that was in 2020 and he has successful surgery on it and he only missed time snce then for catching covid twice and for when he was getting back to full fitness between those bouts of covid) and would cost no more than Minamino cost us thanks to his contract almost being up and him knocking back a few offers of a new one.

Now you have Tchouameni there to cover CDM and one of the other CM slots be it the left cm role of the RCM role, and you also have Zakaria who cam play in CDM and also as a CM plus he is pretty decent at CB.


As well as now having two guys with decent pace, both over six foot, both technically good (though Tchouameni looks to be the real stand out one on that front), we suddenly have less of a drop off in any of the three cnetral midfield roles should someone be injured and we have five midfielders ranging from good to world class in quality all capable of competing for a starting berth as well as having Jones and Elliot nipping at heels, instead of having a situation like now where we have six senior midfielders (plus Eilliot and Jones as the heel nippers) but struggle to be able to put out a regular three and a three that look balanced.


Tchouameni and Zakaria are just an example of two that we have been linked to. Plenty of other midfielders have been linked to us. Nkunku (who would offer cover/competion for an attacking position as well as a midfield one), Barella (looks good enough to just walk into our first team especially in the RCM role). Keisse, Kamara, Bellingham and Sanches have also been linked with us so there is a right mix of prices there from low to high and a proper range of on pitch abilities there with most of the names being able to play to a high level in at least two different midfield positions.

[Fosterbloke]

Meant to be only having a so so season for Leeds.

Like Robertson did for Hull?

[Doc_Piptorious]

Like Robertson did for Hull?

Fair point as sometimes a player might need a move to show what they can really do.


Personally I don't see it with Kalvin Philips but then again I did say something very similar about Robertson when we were first linked with him whatever number of years back.

[labourRed]

Meant to be only having a so so season for Leeds.

Had a few injuries and playing as an emergency CB.

I'd be surprised if the injuries alone doesn't put us off, if the interest is genuine.

[Irishnev]

Think that is still one short, both in terms of quality and ability to suit a role.

Tchouameni would be a fantastic get as he can play in a few midifeld roles without a drop off in quality, though it is looking like being a box to box CM or a number 8 may be where his future lies.

Where I see a problem with your line ups is that there are a number of guys in it who could be out at the same time. Like if Fabinho and RThiago are out at the same time, then Tchouameni can only cover for one and there is a big drop off down to Morton.

Same with the RCM options. If Henderson is out at the same time as one of Thiago or Fabinho, then Tchouameni is again the cover that is not a big drop off, but all the rest are.


For me we need two in and three out as quality in depth is far more important that just numbers in depth something that becomes very clear if we look at City's squad compared to our squad.

Now they can spend a lot more than us, but in terms of squad size we have a far bigger squad than they do. Now we cannot compete with them in terms of what they can pay for a player and what they can pay a player, but if we trimmed our squad back in terms of numbers then surely we could try to have that bit more quality in the second string rather than lots of players who represent either a massive drop off on the guy ahead of them for the position or guys who are simply unreliable/untrusted.


Say we get Tchouameni and we add Zakaria as well for 7m or so now or get Zakaria on a free in the summer.

One is the big money punt on a guy who looks like he might be a seriously good player for years to come and one is a low cost punt on a guy who looks better than most of our current back ups for micfield but is a lot quicker and more physical than them (yes people will say Zakaria had a bad injury but that was in 2020 and he has successful surgery on it and he only missed time snce then for catching covid twice and for when he was getting back to full fitness between those bouts of covid) and would cost no more than Minamino cost us thanks to his contract almost being up and him knocking back a few offers of a new one.

Now you have Tchouameni there to cover CDM and one of the other CM slots be it the left cm role of the RCM role, and you also have Zakaria who cam play in CDM and also as a CM plus he is pretty decent at CB.


As well as now having two guys with decent pace, both over six foot, both technically good (though Tchouameni looks to be the real stand out one on that front), we suddenly have less of a drop off in any of the three cnetral midfield roles should someone be injured and we have five midfielders ranging from good to world class in quality all capable of competing for a starting berth as well as having Jones and Elliot nipping at heels, instead of having a situation like now where we have six senior midfielders (plus Eilliot and Jones as the heel nippers) but struggle to be able to put out a regular three and a three that look balanced.


Tchouameni and Zakaria are just an example of two that we have been linked to. Plenty of other midfielders have been linked to us. Nkunku (who would offer cover/competion for an attacking position as well as a midfield one), Barella (looks good enough to just walk into our first team especially in the RCM role). Keisse, Kamara, Bellingham and Sanches have also been linked with us so there is a right mix of prices there from low to high and a proper range of on pitch abilities there with most of the names being able to play to a high level in at least two different midfield positions.

I’m playing it safe but I also think we need 2, another forward and back up RB

[Doc_Piptorious]

I’m playing it safe but I also think we need 2, another forward and back up RB

I think we need the exact same.

The only question for me is with regard the forward position whether it needs to be a wide forward (and then turning Jota into our starting striker/CF)) or getting a quality striker/CF and letting Jota compete with Mane for the starting LWF berth.

I am leaning more towards getting a striker as that way we have four players creating a situation where we have two that can play in each attacking slot.

LW - Mane/Jota
ST - New Guy/Jota
RW - Salah/Mane

[Irishnev]

I think we need the exact same.

The only question for me is with regard the forward position whether it needs to be a wide forward (and then turning Jota into our starting striker/CF)) or getting a quality striker/CF and letting Jota compete with Mane for the starting LWF berth.

I am leaning more towards getting a striker as that way we have four players creating a situation where we have two that can play in each attacking slot.

LW - Mane/Jota
ST - New Guy/Jota
RW - Salah/Mane

I think a fresh Bobby has plenty left to offer us - he’s more than capable of being a solid rotation option. The problem was he was being flogged to death and was never fresh.....

[Doc_Piptorious]

I think a fresh Bobby has plenty left to offer us - he’s more than capable of being a solid rotation option. The problem was he was being flogged to death and was never fresh.....

In my eyes, if we had the four attacking players I mentioned, then Bobby would become the next tier down from them.

So instead of the drop off from our main guys being an Origi or Minamino, it would be Bobby.

Would have a similar view on midfield where I would make Henderson the new Milner from next season, and the drop off from the starters would be to Henderson.

And it is not that I would be expecting a tiny drop off for every single position, just that at least one of the drop off players for attack and midfield be good enough that the drop off is not as big as it currently is.

Right back is another position where were need to make the drop off in quality gap a bit less than it currently is.

Quality not quantity basically where possible

[Exiled_red]

Basically a year on and nothing has changed, we haven't brought in players we needed to and haven't moved on the players that we should have, most of the points raised in this thread are sadly still valid.

Fabinho is the mainstay of the midfield, Thiago, Keita, Ox and Henderson have picked up injuries (again) and we are relying on a past it Milner and youngsters such as Elliott, Carvalho. Elliott has done well so far, as good as Carvalho was in his cameos so far there's no way he was ready to start a game like that today. I thought Milner would have started, I didn't understand why he didn't to be honest, if we don't think he has the legs for it then I'm not sure when we expect him to play, this feels like a season too far for him.

I thought this summer really needed to be the one to start to address the issues, by bringing in someone to start establishing themselves and transition Henderson from a regular starter to the role Milner has played in recent years. Next summer Ox and Keita will surely be gone and Milner has to retire, that would be alot to replace in one go, next summer will be huge. But there is alot of football to play in a condensed season before then, I think we are going to struggle to midfield out when players start to tire, we were really struggling today and we're only 6 games into the season. Hopefully some of the injured guys can get fit again soon, bit I'm not convinced they will be able to stay that way.

[ChesterDave]

I didn't understand why he didn't to be honest, if we don't think he has the legs for it then I'm not sure when we expect him to play, this feels like a season too far for him.

Milner is ideal for bringing on in games like Bournemouth. Game won, hook a player to rest/rotate. This should be his last season with us though.

[Irishnev]

Basically a year on and nothing has changed, we haven't brought in players we needed to and haven't moved on the players that we should have, most of the points raised in this thread are sadly still valid.

Fabinho is the mainstay of the midfield, Thiago, Keita, Ox and Henderson have picked up injuries (again) and we are relying on a past it Milner and youngsters such as Elliott, Carvalho. Elliott has done well so far, as good as Carvalho was in his cameos so far there's no way he was ready to start a game like that today. I thought Milner would have started, I didn't understand why he didn't to be honest, if we don't think he has the legs for it then I'm not sure when we expect him to play, this feels like a season too far for him.

I thought this summer really needed to be the one to start to address the issues, by bringing in someone to start establishing themselves and transition Henderson from a regular starter to the role Milner has played in recent years. Next summer Ox and Keita will surely be gone and Milner has to retire, that would be alot to replace in one go, next summer will be huge. But there is alot of football to play in a condensed season before then, I think we are going to struggle to midfield out when players start to tire, we were really struggling today and we're only 6 games into the season. Hopefully some of the injured guys can get fit again soon, bit I'm not convinced they will be able to stay that way.

As mentioned in his own thread I think Milner’s “cameo” shows why he should never start a PL or CL game again. He is so off the pace it’s unreal - last season he kinda held his own but now he is ruining his legacy by nit being able to do anything to a decent level. I wasnt angry at him, I just felt sorry that he was in that position…… he doesn’t even have the legs to do his not so subtle Jimmy M fouls!

[vlahka]

Can we add the words '-is crap' to the title?