Midfield

[Charly]

You would expect Henderson to have good stats (better than Thiago), but he is down with Milner, despite being half his age.

For me this us a problem.

It suggests he can no longer get around (which has been clear from watching games).

Could be confirmation bias, or just a "dip", but I think Henderson is almost done. He wont be at Milners's level at the same age.

[Doc_Piptorious]

You would expect Henderson to have good stats (better than Thiago), but he is down with Milner, despite being half his age.

For me this us a problem.

It suggests he can no longer get around (which has been clear from watching games).

Could be confirmation bias, or just a "dip", but I think Henderson is almost done. He wont be at Milners's level at the same age.

To be fair though, most players will not be at Milner's level at Milner's age. He is a physical freak who is also reaping the benefits of years and years of a very regimented routine.

[Mr Pink]

he can no longer get around

round, round, get around, I GET AROUND!

[SB]

round, round, get around, I GET AROUND!

The sun is out here on the Gold Coast. Could be a day for the beach boys

[el matador]

Elliotts number are skewed by the fact he is tracking back & in the main only in a position to jocky the player rather than tackle

Maybe something in that but teams just play around him all the time. Off the ball he’s not good enough.

I wouldn’t play him away at spurs especially in front of Trent.

[Kenneth]

Looking at the side there is something not right with out midfield both in terms of the balance and the availability/injury records of many of the players in there.

If we look at the percentage of games that our midfielders have started over the last 3 seasons before this it makes fairly grim reading:

% of PL and CL games started
...............18-19.19-20..20-21.21-22
Fabinho.....55%...60%...73%...60%
Wijnaldum.84%...87%...88%...N/A
Thiago.......N/A....N/A....46%...47%
Milner........57%...28%...31%...53%
Keita.........39%...26%...19%...47%
Henderson.57%...70%...50%...87%
Ox..............0%...43%....4%...20%
Lallana.......12%....6%...N/A....N/A
Shaqiri.......25%....4%...13%...N/A
Jones...........0%....2%...38%...27%
Elliott..........N/A.....0%...N/A...20%

Games per season 18-19: 51, 19-20: 46, 20-21:48 21-22:15

Now obviously this doesn't tell the whole picture as it doesn't count sub appearances or games were players were available or unselected. But given that for much of this time we have had fairly settled midfield it gives some idea about the availability of the regular starters in this time.

Wijnaldum was averaging ~85% of games over the previous 3 seasons, in that time Fabinho and Henderson have each once managed to make 70% of those games in a single season once but over the 3 years are averaging about 60% each, in this period you would find it difficult to argue with those three being your first choice. Beyond that for much of that time Keita and Milner have been the main backups with Keita starting about 30% of the games and Milner 40%. It seems unfair to scrutinise other players records because they either haven't been here long enough or haven't been considered starters for much of the time for a variety of reasons.

Looking at the % of games started by each player the decision to let Wijnaldum go looks more and more baffling. Look at this season, ok we are only something like a quarter to a third of the way in. Henderson has played more than he has averaged over previous seasons, Fabinho is on about par, the numbers elsewhere are all over the place who is our 3rd midfielder based on the numbers you would say Milner, followed by Thiago and Keita, but the fact that, at the moment they aren't that far behind Fabinho. There is no consistency in our midfield largely down to injury or players being unavailable.

But even if you were to pick a first choice three (ignoring injury records) presumably you would go with Fabinho, Henderson and Thiago/Keita. Even when that midfield has played the balance doesn't look right we have been carved open by most semi decent teams we have played. The midfield aren't filling in and covering for the fullbacks, this is something that Henderson and Wijnaldum used to do quite well, Thiago and Keita have never been as good at this and Henderson's form in this regard seems to have dipped this year. If Fabinho is out Henderson is the one that seems to drop into the DM role, which he doesn't really excel at and we seem to require a nearly 36 year old Milner to be the one to come in and cover for Henderson and help out with the defensive duties because the other guys don't seem as capable. IMO without at least 2 of Fabinho, Henderson and Milner (and them all playing well) we don't really have the right balance. Last season when we had Fabinho and Henderson out of CM either injured or playing CB it was car crash stuff in there at times. Given their records it seems likely that there are going to be times when we are without a couple of them and IMO that will be hugely problematic.

The other issue is the likes of Thiago, Keita, Ox and Jones while all the more attacking player of the three when they play they are very different players and that third role changes depending on who is playing it, and that impacts on the other two guys in there, again given the respective records of the players involved it doesn't seem like we will be able to rely on having a settled midfield either in terms of personnel or the roles being played.

IMO we need to be bringing in some more reliable players in terms of their availability but we also need to figure out the system again the loss of Wijnaldum from a tactical perspective as well as an availability perspective was a big blow and I don't feel we have enough in the squad to compensate.

So this was a good analysis in November 2021.

[Charly]

Yeah
... cant wait for us to replace Wijnaldum.

I wonder who we will get?

[Paul12]

Yeah
... cant wait for us to replace Wijnaldum.

I wonder who we will get?

"Thiago? Brilliant, that's an upgarde on that numpty Wijnaldum...a player a lot of this website don't rate."

[Doc_Piptorious]

"Thiago? Brilliant, that's an upgarde on that numpty Wijnaldum...a player a lot of this website don't rate."

Thiago coming in for Wijnaldum, who was on the slide then, was not a mistake imo.

The mistake was not adding more around Thiago in the coming season so that we had cover for Thiago as well as mobile competition for Henderson a season or two ago.


Plenty on here were saying that over the past two or so seasons.

[Alex]

I dont think Winjnaldum had a direct replacement. The problem is we didnt seem to have people lined up to take over from Henderson, and now with this Fabinho fall off the need is even greater.

If the Midfield was going into the next 3 years with a 29 year old Fabinho, 31 year old Thiago and a 23 year old xxxxxx then it would be alright. We clearly ****ed up not replacing Henderson sooner. But I think the pressing need for the DM to also be switched out has made this look 100 times worse. Its not controversial to think we had planned on replacing Fabinho in 2 years I dont think.

The other side is that we do need some bodies in that midfield that are a step down from the starting 11. But Henderson, Keita and Bajectic would probably have been a good bit of squad depth.

We need to replace Henderson, Keita and it looks like Fabinho now. Thats a massive rebuild now.

[Assassin]

I dont think Winjnaldum had a direct replacement. The problem is we didnt seem to have people lined up to take over from Henderson, and now with this Fabinho fall off the need is even greater.

If the Midfield was going into the next 3 years with a 29 year old Fabinho, 31 year old Thiago and a 23 year old xxxxxx then it would be alright. We clearly ****ed up not replacing Henderson sooner. But I think the pressing need for the DM to also be switched out has made this look 100 times worse. Its not controversial to think we had planned on replacing Fabinho in 2 years I dont think.

The other side is that we do need some bodies in that midfield that are a step down from the starting 11. But Henderson, Keita and Bajectic would probably have been a good bit of squad depth.

We need to replace Henderson, Keita and it looks like Fabinho now. Thats a massive rebuild now.

We could have picked Shelvey up for next to **** all. He would have given us much needed energy and bite in the midfield for the rest of the season

[Doc_Piptorious]

We could have picked Shelvey up for next to **** all. He would have given us much needed energy and bite in the midfield for the rest of the season

30 and more than a bit **** these days, not that he was ever great.


Sabitzer on loan would have been the one to get if we wanted a guy that has a bit of bite but that can also play at a high level regardless of what central midfield position he starts in.

Would have been a very decent short term loan with an option to buy.

[danperkins]

Yup it wasn't a mistake getting rid of Gini he was past his best, nor was it a mistake to get in Thiago. The mistake was not getting in a player of Gini's ilk, always fit, always running, always working. Thiago was something we didn't have in the squad, a player that can pick passes or see things others can't. The problem is, we don't have someone like heyday Gini buzzing around Thiago and allowing him to do his thing. We are also missing a replacement for Henderson, a player who can run all day but can also break through the lines and play box to box.

If you have Thiago, a Gini type work horse and a proper box to box player in that midfield... things look a whole lot different for us this season but alas we don't and we are all saying the same ****ing thing. The lack of foresight & lack of action has been a genuine embarrassment & we have ****ed ourselves this season & maybe beyond that.

[Exiled_red]

I dont think Winjnaldum had a direct replacement. The problem is we didnt seem to have people lined up to take over from Henderson, and now with this Fabinho fall off the need is even greater.

If the Midfield was going into the next 3 years with a 29 year old Fabinho, 31 year old Thiago and a 23 year old xxxxxx then it would be alright. We clearly ****ed up not replacing Henderson sooner. But I think the pressing need for the DM to also be switched out has made this look 100 times worse. Its not controversial to think we had planned on replacing Fabinho in 2 years I dont think.

The other side is that we do need some bodies in that midfield that are a step down from the starting 11. But Henderson, Keita and Bajectic would probably have been a good bit of squad depth.

We need to replace Henderson, Keita and it looks like Fabinho now. Thats a massive rebuild now.

For me the plan originally was for the likes of Keita and Ox people that age along with Fabinho to be the regulars by now with the likes of Henderson having his minutes managed. The problem was that they weren't reliable and/or up to it, and that has been evident for a number of years, but we never rectified that situation (by getting rid and replacing them) either because we couldn't move them on or because we continued to believe that they would come good, or hope that someone like Jones would have stepped up to fill the gap.

The Fabinho situation was rather unexpected at this stage and has undoubtedly made matters worse, but the rest of it was entirely foreseeable, which makes it all the more frustrating.

[Assassin]

30 and more than a bit **** these days, not that he was ever great.


Sabitzer on loan would have been the one to get if we wanted a guy that has a bit of bite but that can also play at a high level regardless of what central midfield position he starts in.

Would have been a very decent short term loan with an option to buy.

I’m just desperate and clutching at straws Jaco. Sabitzer would have been great. But hey ho…..we have Arthur

The backing and ambition by fsg is beyond abysmal. There’ll be no CL or europe conference footy next season. Just feel like we are in the early stages of a death spiral.