Naby Keita

[gratziani]

I don't think too many would call our midfielders genuinely dire players because that is simply not true.

But I do think an arguement could be made for what Dan said about how we can look unbalanced at times in the centre. For me Can and Henderson often look out of synch when they are played together and both are prone to chasing the ball rather than plugging gaps. When one goes chasing the play, the other rarely looks to guard the space made by the other and instead goes and chases play himself.

Wijnaldum is actually quite good at moving into the space created by a midfield partner and he seems to have good awareness of his teammates movements, but when he is part of a trio with Henderson and Can he gets to watch two teammates moving that way and he can only cover one.
:handshake

Does not make them bad players, but it might make them an average pairing in terms of how their skill sets mesh.


In my eyes Keita is a step in the right direction. He is a box to box midfielder who is fast, agile, that attacks well and links play well in the final third, but he is very proactive when his team does not have the ball and he wins the ball back through interceptions probably as much or more than he does through tackles (and he wins a fair share of tackles).

But I would see both Can and Henderson as not being a great fit alongside Keita. Now one of them plus Keita is still a much better pairing imo than Can and Henderson, but it would still potentially leave us with the issue of one of them chasing play when Keita is gone forward and the same problem of attacks coming through our centre using that space.

I would love to see us bring in a player for whom a deeper midfield position is a natural fit and that has a track record of being very aware from that deeper position. Now that could be a mobil ball winning and intercepting type like Saul or a deep player maker type like Jorgino, but either way it would be a player that sees space being created by his teammates chasing forward and he then looks to that space himself to prevent the other team pklaying through it.


Our midfielders are not dire though. They are not poor players, they are not bad players, they are good players in their own right. But sometimes you can have good players that just don't compliment the play of the player's they are partnered with well enough and often enough if the aim if to win titles or cups. That is where I think we are right now with our current CM choices (I am not looking at the AM choices in Coutinho and Lallana as I think both of those guys are easily good enough for an AM role).

Great post mate , plugging gaps and working as a three seems to be un natural at times

[RedReet]

I don't think too many would call our midfielders genuinely dire players because that is simply not true.

But I do think an arguement could be made for what Dan said about how we can look unbalanced at times in the centre. For me Can and Henderson often look out of synch when they are played together and both are prone to chasing the ball rather than plugging gaps. When one goes chasing the play, the other rarely looks to guard the space made by the other and instead goes and chases play himself.

Wijnaldum is actually quite good at moving into the space created by a midfield partner and he seems to have good awareness of his teammates movements, but when he is part of a trio with Henderson and Can he gets to watch two teammates moving that way and he can only cover one.


Does not make them bad players, but it might make them an average pairing in terms of how their skill sets mesh.


In my eyes Keita is a step in the right direction. He is a box to box midfielder who is fast, agile, that attacks well and links play well in the final third, but he is very proactive when his team does not have the ball and he wins the ball back through interceptions probably as much or more than he does through tackles (and he wins a fair share of tackles).

But I would see both Can and Henderson as not being a great fit alongside Keita. Now one of them plus Keita is still a much better pairing imo than Can and Henderson, but it would still potentially leave us with the issue of one of them chasing play when Keita is gone forward and the same problem of attacks coming through our centre using that space.

I would love to see us bring in a player for whom a deeper midfield position is a natural fit and that has a track record of being very aware from that deeper position. Now that could be a mobil ball winning and intercepting type like Saul or a deep player maker type like Jorgino, but either way it would be a player that sees space being created by his teammates chasing forward and he then looks to that space himself to prevent the other team pklaying through it.


Our midfielders are not dire though. They are not poor players, they are not bad players, they are good players in their own right. But sometimes you can have good players that just don't compliment the play of the player's they are partnered with well enough and often enough if the aim if to win titles or cups. That is where I think we are right now with our current CM choices (I am not looking at the AM choices in Coutinho and Lallana as I think both of those guys are easily good enough for an AM role).

It’s a reasoned argument, although one that’s difficult to counter due to the hypothetical nature of the discussion. While it does seem fair to assume that we would be more solid defensively if we had a tactically aware player covering the spaces, how do we know what impact that would have on our play further up the field, both offensively and defensively? It’s a bit similar to the naive arguments when Rafa first joined about the issues with two holding midfielders or playing one up top and the simplistic ‘solutions’ that Andy Gray fans had then. That’s not to say there isn’t an argument to be made here, you are not alone in making some valid points, but equally every dropped point isn’t down to midfield imbalance or a lack of a DM as some supporters would have you believe.

I loathe to make a Klopp knows best argument, but literally there is no other person who understands the intricacies and requirements of Klopp’s system than Klopp himself, so if it was as simple as adding a controlling player, you have to wonder why in 2 years we’ve hardly been linked to one. Similarly, are Can and Henderson pressing forward (and subsequently leaving space behind) instinctively or is that Klopp’s instruction? It used to be accepted that you couldn’t play Gerrard in a midfield 2 as he left the other midfielder exposed, regardless of how good they were. Would a holding midfielder in Klopp’s system not be even more exposed and is there not some logic in both players pressing forward together to win the ball back further up field? You are probably right about Keita and it’s unlikely he’ll address a lot of the issues some fans have with the midfield. I don’t think the midfield or the system is that dysfunctional though and if Keita is brought in to do Can’s/Henderson’s job more effectively, then I can see the benefit in doing so, even if it still leaves us exposed on the occasional counter.

Also, our biggest problem under Klopp is breaking down bus parkers, so I find it baffling to see so many people suggesting adding a DM to the midfield is the solution. Again, Lec has made some good posts on this subject in the past and I’m not totally dismissing it. I see the logic in his interpretation and in the scenarios he highlights, he could be right, a DM could have helped swing the game in our favour. However, we were looked unbeatable at times under Klopp until we were ‘found out’ against Mourinho and subsequently by other managers. So while I concede that DM could solve some problems and possibly have a positive impact, I don’t think it would be too long before opposing managers change their tactics again slightly and we’re still left struggling to break down stubborn defences, this time with one less attacker on the pitch.*



*Edit: That’s not to say I subscribe to the more attackers = more goals theory. Obviously Hamman in the CL final is still fresh in my memory and I can see what Matic has brought to United, but Klopp plays the game further up the pitch and I can’t see a DM having the same impact.

[baitman]

...Also, our biggest problem under Klopp is breaking down bus parkers, so I find it baffling to see so many people suggesting adding a DM to the midfield is the solution. Again, Lec has made some good posts on this subject in the past and I’m not totally dismissing it. I see the logic in his interpretation and in the scenarios he highlights, he could be right, a DM could have helped swing the game in our favour. However, we were looked unbeatable at times under Klopp until we were ‘found out’ against Mourinho and subsequently by other managers. So while I concede that DM could solve some problems and possibly have a positive impact, I don’t think it would be too long before opposing managers change their tactics again slightly and we’re still left struggling to break down stubborn defences, this time with one less attacker on the pitch.

a great reply and very good read.

re the bus parkers, a DM wouldnt necessarily benefit in breaking them down but it would mean that when we have most of the team playing in the other half we would be less susceptible to a quick break away and counter attack.
also a dm isnt really marking the man but covering the free areas in front of the defence so it means we are on the front foot to winning the second ball and preventing our **** clearances coming right back at us.

[gratziani]

I feel that we need this type of player because under Klopp he likes his fallbacks going forward therefore the midfielder needs to have the brain to cover their space.

Someone who can receive the ball and ping it 60 yards for us to attack in an instant and also have the brain to shut off the opposition when they attack.

The weird thing is when we play the better teams we generally seem to cope better because they come at us.

[Doc_Piptorious]

It’s a reasoned argument, although one that’s difficult to counter due to the hypothetical nature of the discussion. While it does seem fair to assume that we would be more solid defensively if we had a tactically aware player covering the spaces, how do we know what impact that would have on our play further up the field, both offensively and defensively? It’s a bit similar to the naive arguments when Rafa first joined about the issues with two holding midfielders or playing one up top and the simplistic ‘solutions’ that Andy Gray fans had then. That’s not to say there isn’t an argument to be made here, you are not alone in making some valid points, but equally every dropped point isn’t down to midfield imbalance or a lack of a DM as some supporters would have you believe.

I loathe to make a Klopp knows best argument, but literally there is no other person who understands the intricacies and requirements of Klopp’s system than Klopp himself, so if it was as simple as adding a controlling player, you have to wonder why in 2 years we’ve hardly been linked to one. Similarly, are Can and Henderson pressing forward (and subsequently leaving space behind) instinctively or is that Klopp’s instruction? It used to be accepted that you couldn’t play Gerrard in a midfield 2 as he left the other midfielder exposed, regardless of how good they were. Would a holding midfielder in Klopp’s system not be even more exposed and is there not some logic in both players pressing forward together to win the ball back further up field? You are probably right about Keita and it’s unlikely he’ll address a lot of the issues some fans have with the midfield. I don’t think the midfield or the system is that dysfunctional though and if Keita is brought in to do Can’s/Henderson’s job more effectively, then I can see the benefit in doing so, even if it still leaves us exposed on the occasional counter.

Also, our biggest problem under Klopp is breaking down bus parkers, so I find it baffling to see so many people suggesting adding a DM to the midfield is the solution. Again, Lec has made some good posts on this subject in the past and I’m not totally dismissing it. I see the logic in his interpretation and in the scenarios he highlights, he could be right, a DM could have helped swing the game in our favour. However, we were looked unbeatable at times under Klopp until we were ‘found out’ against Mourinho and subsequently by other managers. So while I concede that DM could solve some problems and possibly have a positive impact, I don’t think it would be too long before opposing managers change their tactics again slightly and we’re still left struggling to break down stubborn defences, this time with one less attacker on the pitch.*



*Edit: That’s not to say I subscribe to the more attackers = more goals theory. Obviously Hamman in the CL final is still fresh in my memory and I can see what Matic has brought to United, but Klopp plays the game further up the pitch and I can’t see a DM having the same impact.

Thanks for that reply. I enjoyed reading it, and to be honest a lot of it I found myself nodding my head to.

The thing is though that I am not suggesting that we simply add a pure DM and that will solve our woes or perceived woes in the centre. The players I suggested are players that can play in a deeper role, who have a track record of exceling at reading/intercepting play, who are good when it comes to pressing (on and off the ball), who add to the attack when their teams are going forward, and who are very very good at being the go to guy when it comes to doing the ball winning or play starting.

I don't for a moment think that buying one of the guys I suggested would suddenly fix everything or turn us straight away into title contenders, but I do believe that in the centre they would allow us more balance and they are players that have traits and playing styles in common with players Klopp himself used at Dortmund ( and I know it is not a like for like thing, but I tend to try and look at what he has done in the past in terms of how he set up midfields and I try to understand a little as to how he makes a balanced midfield).

And it is easy for me or anyone else to speculate on here about what is right or what is wrong about the team. But at the same time it keeps us ticking over as supporters and the what ifs can often be intriging in their own way.

One thing I am sure of though is that Klopp needs to be given time. It took him a few seasons to get his Dortmund team working the way he wanted it to, and he gave players a chance to prove themselves as the right or wrong guy for a role. I think we are seeing the exact same play out with us, and think that next season could be a really good one for us under Klopp (I know I know, typical Liverpool supporter with the "next season will be our season" ). But I do have that confidence in him as a manager, and whilst he is as open to criticism as any manager, he needs time and patience to do his job.

[danperkins]

I don't think too many would call our midfielders genuinely dire players because that is simply not true.

But I do think an arguement could be made for what Dan said about how we can look unbalanced at times in the centre. For me Can and Henderson often look out of synch when they are played together and both are prone to chasing the ball rather than plugging gaps. When one goes chasing the play, the other rarely looks to guard the space made by the other and instead goes and chases play himself.

Wijnaldum is actually quite good at moving into the space created by a midfield partner and he seems to have good awareness of his teammates movements, but when he is part of a trio with Henderson and Can he gets to watch two teammates moving that way and he can only cover one.


Does not make them bad players, but it might make them an average pairing in terms of how their skill sets mesh.


In my eyes Keita is a step in the right direction. He is a box to box midfielder who is fast, agile, that attacks well and links play well in the final third, but he is very proactive when his team does not have the ball and he wins the ball back through interceptions probably as much or more than he does through tackles (and he wins a fair share of tackles).

But I would see both Can and Henderson as not being a great fit alongside Keita. Now one of them plus Keita is still a much better pairing imo than Can and Henderson, but it would still potentially leave us with the issue of one of them chasing play when Keita is gone forward and the same problem of attacks coming through our centre using that space.

I would love to see us bring in a player for whom a deeper midfield position is a natural fit and that has a track record of being very aware from that deeper position. Now that could be a mobil ball winning and intercepting type like Saul or a deep player maker type like Jorgino, but either way it would be a player that sees space being created by his teammates chasing forward and he then looks to that space himself to prevent the other team pklaying through it.


Our midfielders are not dire though. They are not poor players, they are not bad players, they are good players in their own right. But sometimes you can have good players that just don't compliment the play of the player's they are partnered with well enough and often enough if the aim if to win titles or cups. That is where I think we are right now with our current CM choices (I am not looking at the AM choices in Coutinho and Lallana as I think both of those guys are easily good enough for an AM role).

completely agree with all of this.

[RedReet]

a great reply and very good read.

re the bus parkers, a DM wouldnt necessarily benefit in breaking them down but it would mean that when we have most of the team playing in the other half we would be less susceptible to a quick break away and counter attack.
also a dm isnt really marking the man but covering the free areas in front of the defence so it means we are on the front foot to winning the second ball and preventing our **** clearances coming right back at us.

I totally get that. Part of the problem is that teams set out to frustrate us and then hit us on the counter, so although yes you are right in saying that a DM could prevent a lot of those counters, I’d rather not let it get to that stage and break teams down before they start getting the confidence to attack. By adding Salah to the squad, dropping Coutinho to midfield and longer term adding Keita I can see less teams having success with that approach. So although adding a DM could easily have turned some defeats into draws or draws into wins last year, equally I think we could see an even bigger points swing by playing to our strengths and improving our attacking quality.

Thanks for that reply. I enjoyed reading it, and to be honest a lot of it I found myself nodding my head to.

The thing is though that I am not suggesting that we simply add a pure DM and that will solve our woes or perceived woes in the centre. The players I suggested are players that can play in a deeper role, who have a track record of exceling at reading/intercepting play, who are good when it comes to pressing (on and off the ball), who add to the attack when their teams are going forward, and who are very very good at being the go to guy when it comes to doing the ball winning or play starting.

I don't for a moment think that buying one of the guys I suggested would suddenly fix everything or turn us straight away into title contenders, but I do believe that in the centre they would allow us more balance and they are players that have traits and playing styles in common with players Klopp himself used at Dortmund ( and I know it is not a like for like thing, but I tend to try and look at what he has done in the past in terms of how he set up midfields and I try to understand a little as to how he makes a balanced midfield).

And it is easy for me or anyone else to speculate on here about what is right or what is wrong about the team. But at the same time it keeps us ticking over as supporters and the what ifs can often be intriging in their own way.

One thing I am sure of though is that Klopp needs to be given time. It took him a few seasons to get his Dortmund team working the way he wanted it to, and he gave players a chance to prove themselves as the right or wrong guy for a role. I think we are seeing the exact same play out with us, and think that next season could be a really good one for us under Klopp (I know I know, typical Liverpool supporter with the "next season will be our season" ). But I do have that confidence in him as a manager, and whilst he is as open to criticism as any manager, he needs time and patience to do his job.

I know you’re not. Without reading back over my post, I know I have a tendency to interchange between replying specifically to that post and replying in general, so it appears I’m tarring you (or whoever) with the same brush as everyone else, which isn’t my intention.

Other main problem I have is I’ve never heard of the players you’ve mentioned, so for all I know you could be right and they are exactly what we need.

[red g]

Leipzig lost 2-0. 1point from 6 .....Hope Keita comes early and helps save us from this shower of ****e we are serving up!!!

[Fredo]

Leipzig lost 2-0. 1point from 6 .....Hope Keita comes early and helps save us from this shower of ****e we are serving up!!!

Are you taking the piss? You want a bit of what we served under Hodgson? FFS.

[Red_Polo]

Are you taking the piss? You want a bit of what we served under Hodgson? FFS.

Yes, I mean, Klopp is visibly happy. You certainly couldn't imaging him being enraged by the situation or saying he's sick of conceding goals in a particular fashion. All is just dandy and anyone who suggests otherwise just wants a bit of Bodge.

[Fredo]

Yes, I mean, Klopp is visibly happy. You certainly couldn't imaging him being enraged by the situation or saying he's sick of conceding goals in a particular fashion. All is just dandy and anyone who suggests otherwise just wants a bit of Bodge.

Well no one is happy or we won't be bickering with ourselves. We all know how it eventually ends.

[Red_Polo]

Well no one is happy or we won't be bickering with ourselves. We all know how it eventually ends.

In eventually just talking about the football instead of trolling and sniping?

[Fredo]

In eventually just talking about the football instead of trolling and sniping?

Trolling? It's not.

We've seen how this all ends up over the years. The expectation levels are way too high.

Well maybe we deserve Sam Allardyce.

[Red_Polo]

Trolling? It's not.

We've seen how this all ends up over the years. The expectation levels are way too high.

Well maybe we deserve Sam Allardyce.

[The_weatherman]

Trolling? It's not.

We've seen how this all ends up over the years. The expectation levels are way too high.

Well maybe we deserve Sam Allardyce.

Wow

On thread, Leipzig seem to be tripping up in the league and CL, hope we can take advantage of that, the sooner he comes the better. This team is lacking top quality through the spine, hope Klopp starts to be ruthless.