The Wrestling Thread

[MrShawnMichaels]

Disagree on this point. PPV numbers are no mark of how well the company is doing. People pick and choose there PPV's now, or watch them in groups.

WWE is making more money now than 10 years ago (Before that was the attitude era), based on people like John Cena and Rey Mysterio.

Kids want parents to spend money. Adults and teens don't spend as much on merchandise. WWE know there market and are going for it guns blazing, hence this PG era we are currently in.

TNA on the other hand are trying to be all things to all people, which IMO is why there failing. They wanna be Indy and Mainstream and it just dont work. Plus there stories make less sense than an episode of Family Guy

Of course PPV's are a good indicator of a wrestling company's success via marketability, advertising and general good booking. WWE just posted their last 24 months of figures and it's been down compared to the 24 months before that. WWE has always been making money through merch, from the Hogan and Austin days. Since they are now a plc, they've had to be a bit more creative but certainly Vince is worried about no one buying PPV's anymore. Wrestlemania usually guarantees a million buys, every year. The Trump Wrestlemania was the highest grossing ever, that was a few years ago. This year they got just above 900k worldwide.

As Heyman says in that interview, UFC have done more PPV buys in the past year domestically than the whole of pro wrestling does worldwide. That's just one MMA company compared to the whole of pro wrestling. That is because of good booking, good marketing and good promos. UFC this past year have been really good with their PPV's. How many WWE or TNA PPV's can you claim that were on par with what they have produced? Money in the Bank perhaps?

Reason why WWE have gone PG is because they are trying to corner the younger market. The 18-34 demographic is now flooded with MMA fans, which in the late 90s was the wrestling crowd. Vince is trying to get them young but the problem according to ROH writer Dave Lagana (who was WWE writer for six or so years) is that you will see younger and younger fans get into MMA because a) they are trying to get into something their older brothers, cousins, dads are into and b) it's real.

Wrestling at the moment is failing. You can't argue that. There are less superstars then there were ten years ago. TNA ffs is relying on 90s wrestlers to carry their product. Until some wise guy comes up with a new idea in wrestling or a new way to market the product then we may see some change but now, it's a lame duck. I bet someone like Jack Swagger, if he hadn't met Jim Ross, would have gone into MMA by now. Far more money, far less travelling to be done and a ****load more of reputable job to have.

[MrMichael]

You watched that series yet?

In Impact news, RVD is dead and its EV2.0 v Fortune ........ ok then. Its odd, but its also been relatively cohesively done so far. I enjoyed that promo just now anyway. Flair is hilarious.

[chrispy]

I'm in my 40's now and used to watch Gagne in AWA on a long defunct channel called Supersport. ****, that was probably before most of you were born lol. This product now the WWE offers is ****e, as has been said I think MMA is the way forward now.

[Alex]

Of course PPV's are a good indicator of a wrestling company's success via marketability, advertising and general good booking. WWE just posted their last 24 months of figures and it's been down compared to the 24 months before that. WWE has always been making money through merch, from the Hogan and Austin days. Since they are now a plc, they've had to be a bit more creative but certainly Vince is worried about no one buying PPV's anymore. Wrestlemania usually guarantees a million buys, every year. The Trump Wrestlemania was the highest grossing ever, that was a few years ago. This year they got just above 900k worldwide.

As Heyman says in that interview, UFC have done more PPV buys in the past year domestically than the whole of pro wrestling does worldwide. That's just one MMA company compared to the whole of pro wrestling. That is because of good booking, good marketing and good promos. UFC this past year have been really good with their PPV's. How many WWE or TNA PPV's can you claim that were on par with what they have produced? Money in the Bank perhaps?

Reason why WWE have gone PG is because they are trying to corner the younger market. The 18-34 demographic is now flooded with MMA fans, which in the late 90s was the wrestling crowd. Vince is trying to get them young but the problem according to ROH writer Dave Lagana (who was WWE writer for six or so years) is that you will see younger and younger fans get into MMA because a) they are trying to get into something their older brothers, cousins, dads are into and b) it's real.

Wrestling at the moment is failing. You can't argue that. There are less superstars then there were ten years ago. TNA ffs is relying on 90s wrestlers to carry their product. Until some wise guy comes up with a new idea in wrestling or a new way to market the product then we may see some change but now, it's a lame duck. I bet someone like Jack Swagger, if he hadn't met Jim Ross, would have gone into MMA by now. Far more money, far less travelling to be done and a ****load more of reputable job to have.

Comparing MMA to WWE is like comparing it to boxing. There not the same and never will be. Plus anyone who thinks they can cross over to MMA is sorely mistaken. Bobby Lashly is hardly setting the world alight(At the moment)

I think personally that WWE is doing better now, there all over the world now and truly are a global brand. There in Japan at the moment.

I take your point about the rock and austin. But there still milking that for all they can too.

Also there in a massive transition period at the moment too. If they started getting the younger talent through 3 years ago, i think they would be alot stonger now.

[MrShawnMichaels]

Comparing MMA to WWE is like comparing it to boxing. There not the same and never will be. Plus anyone who thinks they can cross over to MMA is sorely mistaken. Bobby Lashly is hardly setting the world alight(At the moment)

I think personally that WWE is doing better now, there all over the world now and truly are a global brand. There in Japan at the moment.

I take your point about the rock and austin. But there still milking that for all they can too.

Also there in a massive transition period at the moment too. If they started getting the younger talent through 3 years ago, i think they would be alot stonger now.

There is a direct correlation surely? Both in similar fields and in the PPV industry. Lashley is in Strikeforce who don't have the booking talent of Dana White.

WWE is not truly global, they're strong in some areas like US, Canada, UK, Ireland, Italy, Germany, Australia. They've only just recently gone on prime time Mexican TV and considering how much wrestling there has been in Mexico, it's quite surprising. WWE were always going to get into Japan given the huge of amount of American wrestlers that have gone to Japan especially in the 90s and they too have a huge wrestling and MMA culture. They are plans for them to break China but they are afraid if they come second behind UFC, they are not making a single penny in that market.

They're in a transition period but it does seem quite long. WWE hasn't been the same since McMahon took over WCW. They were some strong periods along the way, undoubtedly especially when Heyman was creative for Smackdown, but it's been sporadic.

[MrShawnMichaels]

You watched that series yet?

In Impact news, RVD is dead and its EV2.0 v Fortune ........ ok then. Its odd, but its also been relatively cohesively done so far. I enjoyed that promo just now anyway. Flair is hilarious.

Not yet but thanks for reminding me. Probably watch it tonight. Flair shouldn't be in trunks, great promo guy, he should be the JJ Dillon for Fortune.

[Alex]

There is a direct correlation surely? Both in similar fields and in the PPV industry. Lashley is in Strikeforce who don't have the booking talent of Dana White.

You make a good point on the others, but ill disagree here.

I dont think there is a correlation at all. People compare them because there monthly PPV events. One is real and one is not. Simple as that with me. Its like comparing Jeremy Kyle with real tv.

Secondly, why do you think Lashley is in Strikeforce? Surly if Dana White thought he could make money of the guy he would have signed him up. Look at Brock. The guy draws and is a animal.

I honestly cant see Lashley making it big unless he fully focuses on it.



This thread has had more valid discussion than almost all wrestling forums out there

Oh and MrMichael, ive watched them. There good, very ****ing good!

[MrShawnMichaels]

You make a good point on the others, but ill disagree here.

I dont think there is a correlation at all. People compare them because there monthly PPV events. One is real and one is not. Simple as that with me. Its like comparing Jeremy Kyle with real tv.

Secondly, why do you think Lashley is in Strikeforce? Surly if Dana White thought he could make money of the guy he would have signed him up. Look at Brock. The guy draws and is a animal.

I honestly cant see Lashley making it big unless he fully focuses on it.



This thread has had more valid discussion than almost all wrestling forums out there

Oh and MrMichael, ive watched them. There good, very ****ing good!

I've heard Dana speak about this and it's because of two things:
a) Lashley isn't a big enough draw even from wrestling fans
b) He doesn't want UFC to be seen as a hotbed for ex-wrestlers to come and make money. Lashley needs to build his rep on Strikeforce, once he does well (he has a fight on Sat) he may eventually get signed for UFC

[Bender]

DAC Dashing Cody Rhodes never have i seen such an embarrassing push/promo for a wrestler .......

[refugee]

I was channel flicking and came across Kanes promo on Smackdown, which I thought was excellent. Makes me wonder who the genius was that made him "debut" as a mute.

[little dave hedgehog]

he used to have a stuttering problem which he has overcome.

[MrMichael]

Not yet but thanks for reminding me. Probably watch it tonight. Flair shouldn't be in trunks, great promo guy, he should be the JJ Dillon for Fortune.

He's wrestled very rarely really in TNA, and delivered some superb promos. I'd go so far as to say he has been the one old guy they brought in who has been worth the money, elevating people like Styles and Lethal, and now Fortune together (which is a great group really, especially with Williams and Morgan aligned).

You make a good point on the others, but ill disagree here.

I dont think there is a correlation at all. People compare them because there monthly PPV events. One is real and one is not. Simple as that with me. Its like comparing Jeremy Kyle with real tv.

Secondly, why do you think Lashley is in Strikeforce? Surly if Dana White thought he could make money of the guy he would have signed him up. Look at Brock. The guy draws and is a animal.

I honestly cant see Lashley making it big unless he fully focuses on it.



This thread has had more valid discussion than almost all wrestling forums out there

Oh and MrMichael, ive watched them. There good, very ****ing good!

Lashley is just boring, in mma or pro wrestling, that's his issue. And yeah, Dana White learnt everything he knows about promoting from 90's wrestling, however he's able to pitch a product that's "real" so appeals to the market that doesn't understand what wrestling is about anymore. The way he promotes feuds, encourages controversy etc, is very clever, and there are obvious similarities.


They really are. Guns v GenMe on Impact next week, spot-tastic that one will be, I hope they give it good time.

[MrShawnMichaels]

Lets see.... yeah, here you go (have to include the initial title match too).

Victory Road - BM (c) v MCMG - link 1 ( from ~09.55), link 2
Best of 5 (1) Ladder match - link (from ~2.30)
Best of 5 (2) Street Fight - link (from ~6.30)
Best of 5 (3) Steel Cage - link (from ~1.00)
Best of 5 (4) Ultimate X - link 1 (from ~0.45), link 2
Best of 5 (5) 3 Falls - link 1, link 2, link 3

Nothing will beat that feud all year. Taker - Michaels @ Mania and Angle - Anderson from Lockdown were both 5* individual matches (for different reasons), but as a series that was the nuts, and easily the best tag wrestling since Hardys/E&C/Dudleys. I'd go as far as to say, on reflection, the best I've ever seen in the modern style.

Enjoy

Right, just watched all these matches in one go. The series was really good but I certainly would have liked to have seen these matches spread out over five PPV's. What you could have booked in the preceding Impact shows were single matches, kept the teams apart and built a genuine storyline and hatred between both teams. But what's done is done I guess, I'm just suggesting ways TNA could have helped boost their PPV numbers.

The weakest match out of the three was the steel cage match. I had a couple of issues with this match. Firstly, why does Robert Roode need to do a bladejob? This made absolutely no sense at all. In a wrestling match, the only reason to juice yourself is to add emotional significance and attachment to the match. Roode is a heel and got cut in the first minute. Stupid when you think about it. Secondly, why do the tag teams feel the need to stand in their corners during the match? It's a cage match where you can't get disqualified (although we seen at Lockdown, that can be the case). Thirdly, especially in this match, the lack of pinfall attempts by both teams meant there was a lack of suspense and tension in the match. The last match had it done perfectly. Big move or high flying move depending on team, followed by a cover and you get a two and half or two and three quarter count. It slowly leads to a crescendo and makes the finish seem majestic. The steel cage match seemed rushed IMO.

Ladder match - ***3/4 - good tv match, being a ladder match you are going to end up with similar spots being repeated though I liked the ending.

Street fight - ***3/4 - same as above, good tv match but because it was on Impact it was cut short. I'm not a huge fan of hardcore matches unless they go full blown out hardcore. This seemed hardcore light, could have done with a table or two IMO.

Cage match - *** - made my views known above. Some good spots.

Ultimate X - ***3/4 - I really liked the narrative of this match. MCMG were the experienced ones and exactly knew what to do. Beer Money constantly tried to ground and pound and got savvier at trying to reach the X at each attempt. Ending was cool too.

Two out of three falls - ****1/2 - There are rarely five star matches in wrestling, everything's got to be perfect. I don't even think Michaels v Taker from this year or last warranted five stars. They were very, very good but lacked a bit of something. (in the first match, Michaels went for a tornado through the ropes which nearly literally killed Taker) I really liked this match, it suits both teams and doesn't really exploit them. There was no stupid ref bumps and beer bottles, just effective wrestling and good ring psychology. I do think they could have spaced the first and second fall better and the finish could have been where Beer Money got in a pin attempt before MCMG got the win rather than two MCMG attempts to get the win. Other than that, good tempo, good interaction and good timing.

Pro wrestling has been crying out for some good tag team feuds and TNA have the potential of producing it more so than WWE. The feud was really good and the final match encapsulated the athleticism and skill between both teams.

[MrShawnMichaels]

He's wrestled very rarely really in TNA, and delivered some superb promos. I'd go so far as to say he has been the one old guy they brought in who has been worth the money, elevating people like Styles and Lethal, and now Fortune together (which is a great group really, especially with Williams and Morgan aligned).

He doesn't need to wrestle at all. He should be delivering promos and help Styles especially. That guy can't talk at all.

And seriously, Matt Morgan? He's like Kane. Douglas Williams on the other hand is ****ing superb.

Lashley is just boring, in mma or pro wrestling, that's his issue. And yeah, Dana White learnt everything he knows about promoting from 90's wrestling, however he's able to pitch a product that's "real" so appeals to the market that doesn't understand what wrestling is about anymore. The way he promotes feuds, encourages controversy etc, is very clever, and there are obvious similarities.


They really are. Guns v GenMe on Impact next week, spot-tastic that one will be, I hope they give it good time.

Lashley was hospitalised at Strikeforce Houston this week. He looked really bad against a guy who he was meant to beat to get to the top of the heavyweight division. Doesn't look good. The only fight which could push his status a bit, is Batista lol.

I'm not sure whether Dana White was influenced a lot by wrestling. He has a huge background in boxing and MMA before the Frittita's installed him as President of UFC. He obviously knows a bit about pro wrestling and how it works but promoting is quite simple when you break it down.

It's two men, you tell a story between them. You make the audience care about this fight and constantly tell them why they are fighting (title, hatred, number one contender, etc).

[MrMichael]

Right, just watched all these matches in one go. The series was really good but I certainly would have liked to have seen these matches spread out over five PPV's.

<snipped>

Pro wrestling has been crying out for some good tag team feuds and TNA have the potential of producing it more so than WWE. The feud was really good and the final match encapsulated the athleticism and skill between both teams.

Good assessment of the series mate.

Out of interest, how woud you rate the VR match before the series started? Some people seemed to prefer it even to the 2 out of 3, action-wise and story telling it was certainly right up there, but I'd guess you wouldn't like the false finish, although imo that one was well done and kinda added to the overall story.

Anyway, yeah, the cage was defo the weakest, not sure if Storm's cut was intentional although it certainly looks like a blade. I also really liked the UX, the narrative was spot on and suited the match & teams. The final was brill, although your slight neg points are all valid. Nothing's perfect though

He doesn't need to wrestle at all. He should be delivering promos and help Styles especially. That guy can't talk at all.

And seriously, Matt Morgan? He's like Kane. Douglas Williams on the other hand is ****ing superb.

Morgan seems to be in a sort of vaguely alligned hired muscle role to add weight and numbers to beatdowns (none of the main 4 are big guys really), he's better at that than someone like Rob Terry. Doug is boss.

Lashley was hospitalised at Strikeforce Houston this week. He looked really bad against a guy who he was meant to beat to get to the top of the heavyweight division. Doesn't look good. The only fight which could push his status a bit, is Batista lol.