Boxing

[Shaggy]

Feel the same atm although tbh as it draws nearer I expect to be sucked in. As a head to head I find it a pretty fascinating bout and clash of styles, and I'm torn on who I'd want to win.

Feel pretty starved of boxing atm, so much so I'll be getting the ale in for Povetkin v Whyte at the weekend

[red g]

Okolie was pretty impressive at the weekend.

[Doc_Piptorious]

Feel the same atm although tbh as it draws nearer I expect to be sucked in. As a head to head I find it a pretty fascinating bout and clash of styles, and I'm torn on who I'd want to win.

Feel pretty starved of boxing atm, so much so I'll be getting the ale in for Povetkin v Whyte at the weekend

Yeah quality bouts at the top level are very much few and far between nowadays and would argue that it was also to case before covid.


Like yourself I will be watching Povetkin v Whyte, but if you think about it even in the 1990s or early 2000s, such a bout would very much have been seen as a ticking over fight between guys who pad the records of the top fighters rather than being hyped as some sort of meeting between genuine contenders.

Still some fantastic fighters if you look through the lighter weight classes, but decade by decade the nubers are dwindling.

I have almost given up on the current heavyweight division as from the top down it is now a sub par division until some real quality emerges again.


The last guys who I think were genuine top heavyweights were the Klitschko brothers and I think it shows both the quality of Wladimir and the lack of genuine quality in the division that he was still fighting up to the age of 40.


Joshua beating him when he was 40 was still a good win for Joshua as Wlad was still a good fighter, and Fury beating him on points when he was 38 was a good win for Fury, but you have to wonder if Wlad was 5 or 10 years younger if he would have lost, and what I am sure of is if Vitali had been a younger man and able to face Joshua or Fury then his much more heavy handed approach would have beaten both imo.


But the days of having a prime Klitschko level fighter in the heavyweight division are gone for now let alone a prime Lennox Lewis, or a Holyfield, Tyson or Bowe.

Just to touch on Lennox Lewis. He boxed in a era where the decent journeymen type guys that padded out the records were the likes of Morrison, Mercer, Golota, Briggs, Grant, Tua and Tucker.


Drop those seven names into the current division and they would be getting called the best out there.


Just imagine a prime Lennox Lewis ( when he was being trained by Emanuel Steward and not Pepe Correa) in against Joshua or Fury. I could see him stopping Joshua very early on and either stopping Fury late or winning by UD as I think Fury would be in spoil and survive mode against Lewis.

[Doc_Piptorious]

Okolie was pretty impressive at the weekend.

It was a good win over Głowacki, and one in which he looked quite tidy at times, but I think it was a win that showed that Okolie would be better served staying at cruiserweight rather than the rumoured move to heavyweight after he gets a shot at one of the bigger Cruiserweight belts.

Glowacki is a decent and durable rather than top level crusier and it was a good KO win for Okolie, but he looks to have good crusierweight power rather than the sort of power that would bother a good heavyweight. Then again I may have made an arguement for him in my last post with regards of the current lack of quality in the heavyweight division, so maybe he could well move up and be matched cleverly so that he gets put into the title mix at heavyweight.

[fidget]

But the days of having a prime Klitschko level fighter in the heavyweight division are gone for now let alone a prime Lennox Lewis, or a Holyfield, Tyson or Bowe.

Just to touch on Lennox Lewis. He boxed in a era where the decent journeymen type guys that padded out the records were the likes of Morrison, Mercer, Golota, Briggs, Grant, Tua and Tucker.


Drop those seven names into the current division and they would be getting called the best out there.


Just imagine a prime Lennox Lewis ( when he was being trained by Emanuel Steward and not Pepe Correa) in against Joshua or Fury. I could see him stopping Joshua very early on and either stopping Fury late or winning by UD as I think Fury would be in spoil and survive mode against Lewis.

Excellent post.
I think even a sloppy Lennox Lewis still wins both of those fights easily.
Best heavyweight of all time in my opinion.

[Doc_Piptorious]

Excellent post.
I think even a sloppy Lennox Lewis still wins both of those fights easily.
Best heavyweight of all time in my opinion.

Not sure if I fully agree with that, but even without having a think on it I can see how a strong arguement could be made for a peak Lewis being able to handle any prime heavyweight in history.

Think Lewis is one of the best examples of a heavyweight who had pretty much everything in his locker when at his best.

Just thinking now which heavyweights in their prime ( and given access to the same sort of diet and modern training techniques and modern training equipment that Lewis would have had access to) that I think would have beaten Lewis in a trilogy of fights.

Going with a trilogy as I think the very best would need that to decide who was the better as the best heavyweights could all end a fight with a clean shot.

My gut instinct as I typed came up with the list of contenders as having five possibles to beat Prime Lewis two out of three.

Ali, Holmes, Tyson, Holyfield and Riddick Bowe.

The Holyfield I had in mind was circa 1994, but I am ruling him out because he was a bit of a snap pick as I really liked him as a fighter and whilst he has a good record he was never as dominant as Lewis and I cannot see him beating a peak Lewis once in a trilogy let alone twice.

Then we have Bowe. A boxer I think I added because of his sheer talent and ability plus the fact he could match Lewis for size. A motivated Bowe could have been the best heavyweight of all time and he had all the tools. I would go as far as to say he had as much talent as Lewis, and as mich power and maybe a shade more durablity. But he lacked the discipline and strong mentality of Lewis and unlike Lewis never really realised his potential for a sustained periond of time. Think him and Lewis in their primes would have been a cracking trilogy but Lewis wins at least two of the three for me.

Tyson comes next for me, and prime Tyson was a force of nature, but prime Lewis had power, durability and was a very clever fighter and Lewis had the habit of going hard from the early minutes at any fighter he thought might be a threat so that he could either stop the fighter fast or put them into their shell. Tyson I think might land enough to stop Lewis once over a trilogy but Lewis stops him in the other two for me.

Now it gets real tricky. Ali and Holmes.


Holmes at his best had everything. Power, technique, talent, ring smarts, heart, a great chin, and could pick you off from behind that jab or go to war with you. Was not for no reason that his winning streak last 12 or 13 years and that his first loss did not come until his 48th fight and the first and only time he was stopped came in his 50th fight. He also had decent size, not as big as Lewis but big enough and throw in mordern diets/training etc and he would have been even better. Plus Holmes fought the best he could fight and like Lewis beat the journeymen of his era that were the sort that would have been top fighters in other eras.

Lewis and Holmes is a even pick for me and I cannot split them at all.



Then we have Ali. Not a short man at 6'3 and no doubt in a more modern era with better training tehniques, better equipment and a much better quality of diet/suplements etc he would have been a bit heavier than back in his day. Talent wise he had it all, he had good power, amazing reflexes, an amazing chin and great overall durability, and lenty of heart. He also had that touch of a mongrel to his boxing and that bit of a nasty streak in him in the ring. I think Lewis would have stopped him at least once, but not so sure that Lewis could do it twice and orevent Ali winning two from three.

[fidget]

Another great post - put the five boxers above in a round robin with Lewis and I think Lewis gets the most wins. What do you think?
It’s a shame how far the heavyweights have fallen.

[Doc_Piptorious]

Another great post - put the five boxers above in a round robin with Lewis and I think Lewis gets the most wins. What do you think?
It’s a shame how far the heavyweights have fallen.

hmm a round robin tournament with those five plus Lewis and all in their prime and all with the same level in terms of diet/training techniques/training equipment etc.

Think peak Ali wins four fights with one undecided in my mind(Holmes)

Peak Holmes wins four with one undecided (Ali). The man was a machine at his peak and so so fluid in his movement.

Peak Lewis wins two (Bowe and Holyfield) with one undecided (Tyson due to the lottery of a once off fight with a massive hitter)

Bowe wins one (Holyfield) with one undecided (Tyson again due to the big hitter lottery)

Holyfield wins none but makes a lot of them earn their wins.


Having said all that, I am sure if I took the time to sit down and better evaluate each fighter and spend more time of how their strengths and weaknesses mesh, I might change my thinking a little bit.

[fidget]

I go Lewis,Holmes then Ali as my top 3.

I think peak Lewis beats peak Tyson nine out of ten times and gets at least six out of ten against Holmes and seven out of ten against Ali but you can certainly make a case for any ranking of those three.

[Doc_Piptorious]

I go Lewis,Holmes then Ali as my top 3.

I think peak Lewis beats peak Tyson nine out of ten times and gets at least six out of ten against Holmes and seven out of ten against Ali but you can certainly make a case for any ranking of those three.

I have Holmes as the GOAT, then probably give second place to Ali over Lewis.

Holmes for me just had everything. Cannot think of one weakness the prime Holmes had in the ring. He was mobile, he was strong, he was durable in the body, he has a hell of a chin, he could box as smoothly as a middleweight and he could brawl like a sailor. Power in both hands, had quick hands, a brilliant jab, knew how to weather a storm or when to press his advantage, and like Hagler at middleweight was able to adjust his boxing style from the more light footed early to mid 20s years to his heavier footed late 20s to early 30s years without ever dropping below being world class.

Was only when Holmes was in his late 30s/early 40s that he really started to slow and the guy still was beating top 20 level heavyweights when he was well into his 40s and still getting into the ring with top 10 guys that were unable to force a stoppage against the man when he was miles over the hill. Hell when he was 46 he went after Oliver McCall after McCall had just knocked out Lennox Lewis and went the distance against him with McCall not looking like he could stop Holmes at any point.

Ali I give the second place nod to because he faced (imo) more top level fighters than Lewis (Somehing Lewis had no control over to be fair he could only beat what was in his own era and he did beat the best his era offered with the only missing name being that of Bowe and it was Bowe that avoided Lewis on that score).

I also give Ali the second place nod due to longevity and being able to come back at the highest level after an enforced lay off of years.

The third thing that got Ai the nod over Lewis for me was the calibre of fighter that scored wins over them when in or close to their primes. Ali had points losses to Frazier and Norton when in or close to his peak. Lewis had KO losses to McCall and Rahman.


But as you said, you could make an arguement for any of the three tbh.


Funnily enough three of four most prized bits of boxing memorabilia come from those three men.

Have a fight post replica signed by Ali (Got it signed by him when he was in Ennis in Ireland years ago)

Have one of my own gloves signed by Lewis, when he visited an ABC when he was over in Dublin to fight Justin Fortune.

And my fave of the three bits is an imprint in plaster of Larry Holmes' right hand. Met Holmes through Andy Lee (good old Limerick connection ) and there was some signings etc going on and Larry put his hand in some plaster of paris in a small tray and when it dried I got the surrounding plaster filed down so it could be mounted on a small frame with a little plaque on it saying whose hand imprint it is.

[fidget]

And my fave of the three bits is an imprint in plaster of Larry Holmes' right hand. Met Holmes through Andy Lee (good old Limerick connection ) and there was some signings etc going on and Larry put his hand in some plaster of paris in a small tray and when it dried I got the surrounding plaster filed down so it could be mounted on a small frame with a little plaque on it saying whose hand imprint it is.

Brilliant - I drove three hours to Oxford in 1993 when Ali was helping Howard Bingham book signing for this book



- some arsehole stole it from my desk at the place I worked at the time.
probably worth a few bob if I still had it.

I've got Virgil Hill's wristband from when he beat Drake Thadzi on the Bruno McCall undercard somewhere - he was an absolute gentleman.

[Doc_Piptorious]

Brilliant - I drove three hours to Oxford in 1993 when Ali was helping Howard Bingham book signing for this book



- some arsehole stole it from my desk at the place I worked at the time.
probably worth a few bob if I still had it.

Yeah that would be worth at least 100 to 200 quid now as Bingham's books when signed by him and his subject matter are usually in that range.

Hope the thief went on to have plenty of bad luck for his/her theft of your book.

[Shaggy]

Predictions for Whyte Povetkin 2?

I'm having a little bet on a late Whyte stoppage. Maybe TKO in the 9th. About 12/1 for a bit of added interest.

[Zapater]

I suspect Whyte will get it done by way of knockout, but Povetkin has a bit about him, quite dangerous even though he's long in the tooth. Whyte is always susceptible to being caught and with a dangerous puncher like Povetkin, who knows?

[Doc_Piptorious]

I suspect Whyte will get it done by way of knockout, but Povetkin has a bit about him, quite dangerous even though he's long in the tooth. Whyte is always susceptible to being caught and with a dangerous puncher like Povetkin, who knows?

Totally forgot his age until you said that. Turns 42 later this year.

Think it says a lot about Whyte's "quality" that I am leaning towards the much older and much smaller man to get another win tonight.