Olympics 2024

[spud_gun]

Ok no worries, what did I say that was incorrect?

Lets not be silly, i'm sure you're already well aware

[Saveloy]

She was born a woman. The trans issue is not relevant here. My bad.

https://twitter.com/turnbulldugarte/...21882160562641

That is a terrible tweet though.

[Saveloy]

It’s not a trans issue, but it is still a gender issue. My understanding is that she physically presents as female but has x and Y chromosomes and elevated testosterone levels. That doesn’t make her “biologically male” or female, it makes her someone with a genetic abnormality. Nothing she has any control over or has chosen, but in a sport as dangerous as boxing, it’s easy to see why the IBA decided she couldn’t compete in their event. With different rules for the Olympics she’s been cleared to compete there. Rowling‘s rant is totally inappropriate, but not all objections are necessarily so.

[danperkins]

Lets not be silly, i'm sure you're already well aware

No, I'm actually not, what did I say that was incorrect?

[spud_gun]

Imagine dedicating your entire lives to the sport, the sacrifice and commitment that takes to even get to the Olympics to compete against the best women in the world and then some biological dude knocks the living **** out of you. Looking at that Italian girl quitting after 46 seconds was sickening, this is the over correction of diversity and inclusion laid bare for all to see.

Fair play to Harrington saying she won't fight a biological male, I'm sure most of the women are terrified to speak out incase there is backlash. We are living in the ****ing twilight zone.

No problem I'll rephrase it.

Imagine dedicating your entire lives to the sport, the sacrifice and commitment that takes to even get to the Olympics to compete against the best women in the world and then someone who was thrown out of last year's world championships after being deemed biologically male, knocks the living **** out of you

No, I'm actually not, what did I say that was incorrect?

In your initial post you suggested that Khelif was a 'biological dude' and in your 'corrected' post you referred to her as being 'biologically male'

Neither of which are correct

[Pablo]

It’s not a trans issue, but it is still a gender issue. My understanding is that she physically presents as female but has x and Y chromosomes and elevated testosterone levels. That doesn’t make her “biologically male” or female, it makes her someone with a genetic abnormality. Nothing she has any control over or has chosen, but in a sport as dangerous as boxing, it’s easy to see why the IBA decided she couldn’t compete in their event. With different rules for the Olympics she’s been cleared to compete there. Rowling‘s rant is totally inappropriate, but not all objections are necessarily so.

Yeah well said.

Natural testosterone levels in women are far lower than in men.

Higher testosterone = more muscle growth

More muscle = more strength

So her elevated testosterone levels would give her a massive strength advantage, akin to making it man vs woman.

Many men and women take things like steroids and TRT to increase their testosterone levels to unnaturally high levels. Anyone doing that would obviously be banned in nearly all competitive sports.

The problem here is because of a genetic abnormality her testosterone levels are abnormally high for a woman. She's cheating without actually cheating.

It's not her fault, but should she still be allowed to compete? It's a tough one, but personal opinion is, no she shouldn't.

Trying to be open-minded this is my solution:

No more mens/women's sports. Bin that idea.

Have separate testosterone level categories, almost like weight categories like in boxing.

At the lower testosterone level you would have 99.999% "women" in it anyway, and the odd exception would have to compete against the "men".

Would never happen but would solve a lot of these issues.

[Exiled_red]

It's a complex issue and is one of gender rather than a trans issue that some people are trying to make it out to be. She was born female and has grown up and got into boxing as a female athlete. Maybe it is time to recognise that gender isn't binary, people can be born with different genitals to what their chromosomes suggest they are or a have different levels of hormones ... etc. There isn't a binary way to say a particular person is male or female. It is suggested that upto 1.7% of the population are born with intersex traits. It's not just a sport issue it's a wider society issue.

One other thing on Khelif her record is 37 wins and 9 defeats, her percentage of wins by KO is below average, so the idea being presented that her higher levels of testosterone are allowing her to dominate womens sport doesn't seem to be backed up by the statistics in her career so far, people are using her situation for their own means.

[Mark79]

Yeah well said.

Natural testosterone levels in women are far lower than in men.

Higher testosterone = more muscle growth

More muscle = more strength

So her elevated testosterone levels would give her a massive strength advantage, akin to making it man vs woman.

Many men and women take things like steroids and TRT to increase their testosterone levels to unnaturally high levels. Anyone doing that would obviously be banned in nearly all competitive sports.

The problem here is because of a genetic abnormality her testosterone levels are abnormally high for a woman. She's cheating without actually cheating.

It's not her fault, but should she still be allowed to compete? It's a tough one, but personal opinion is, no she shouldn't.

Trying to be open-minded this is my solution:

No more mens/women's sports. Bin that idea.

Have separate testosterone level categories, almost like weight categories like in boxing.

At the lower testosterone level you would have 99.999% "women" in it anyway, and the odd exception would have to compete against the "men".

Would never happen but would solve a lot of these issues.

So solve men vs women in sport issues…by literally having men vs women?

This wouldn’t solve a lot of these issues, it would just open a Pandora’s box.

For a start, how can you base it purely on testosterone? What about cardiac output, for example?

Even a woman with high testosterone would rightly claim that having a smaller heart and lungs puts her at an unfair disadvantage to her male competitors.

So would we then have to measure heart size and have another category based on that? Where would it end?

[danperkins]

In your initial post you suggested that Khelif was a 'biological dude' and in your 'corrected' post you referred to her as being 'biologically male'

Neither of which are correct

I was referring to the IBA tests & results & quoted it word for word in the 'rephrased' post.

Imagine dedicating your entire lives to the sport, the sacrifice and commitment that takes to even get to the Olympics to compete against the best women in the world and then someone who was thrown out of last year's world championships after being deemed biologically male, knocks the living **** out of you

[spud_gun]

But she isn't biologically male?

[Doc_Piptorious]

Yeah well said.

Natural testosterone levels in women are far lower than in men.

Higher testosterone = more muscle growth

More muscle = more strength

So her elevated testosterone levels would give her a massive strength advantage, akin to making it man vs woman.

Many men and women take things like steroids and TRT to increase their testosterone levels to unnaturally high levels. Anyone doing that would obviously be banned in nearly all competitive sports.

The problem here is because of a genetic abnormality her testosterone levels are abnormally high for a woman. She's cheating without actually cheating.

It's not her fault, but should she still be allowed to compete? It's a tough one, but personal opinion is, no she shouldn't.

Trying to be open-minded this is my solution:

No more mens/women's sports. Bin that idea.

Have separate testosterone level categories, almost like weight categories like in boxing.

At the lower testosterone level you would have 99.999% "women" in it anyway, and the odd exception would have to compete against the "men".

Would never happen but would solve a lot of these issues.

No it would not. The disparity between her and the men in the same weight class would be as great if not greater than the one between her and other women.


Does she have an advantage over other female boxers? Yes of course she does and it is a damn big advantage, but it is also a natural advantage, one she was born with.


Just to pick two fighters from years gone by but not so many years that folk will not have forgotten them.


Roy Jones Jr and Mike Tyson.


Both of those were born with genetic traits that simply could not be trained or created in any gym. The former in particular.

There was no outcry when Jones was schooling fighters across a number of weight divisions, often handing out a knockout after systematically dismantling the other man for a number of prior rounds.

Jones Jr in his prime has reflexes that were above the natural levels of most men, be they trained fighters or not, and as such he would fight in a style that was more of less his own as others simply did not have the reaction speed, raw hand and the sort of hand to eye coordination that came with his phyical make up.



Tyson on the other hand was a bit of a gentic freak too. He won the lottery genetically.

Power levels far above the norm, speed far above what his weight and build suggest would be the norm all coupled with a simiular level of hand to eye cordination that Jones Jr had.


Now I appreciate it is not comparing like for like when talking about Khelif, but we are still talking about two guys that were genetically gifted (off the charts when it comes to Jones Jr and his reflexes) and who in their prime went into the ring with a big genetic advantage over anyone they faced.


I also appreciate the fact that a genetic advantage in a full contact sport like boxing (or close to full contact in the case of the unpaid ranks) is potentially dangerous, but would argue it is no more so (or no less so) than letting a Roy Jones Jr or Mike Tyson in their primes in against other fighters.


What is also interesting about Khelif is that she has never been a dominant fighter against other women in the manner that the two male fighters I named were.

Exiled Red has touched on it already, but as an amatuer boxer her record is good rather than outstanding, and very much one that suggests a fighter that does easily over power oppoenents on a regular basis.


To my eyes she is a fighter that wins a lot of the fights she does thanks to a very different physical advantage to strength and that advantage lies in her height and reach.

She tends to win by keeping the other fighter at range and by stopping a shorter fighter from trying to fight on the inside or fighting in the middle ground.

A fighter that is capable of fighting on the inside against her, as Kelly Harrington did against her in the 2020 Olympics or Amy Broadhurst at the Wold Championships, tends to get a lot of joy as Khelif does not seem to have the raw power to force that sort of fighter to change course.


The fight in question is a strange one for me.

It was not a beat down, it was not a knock down.

Only one punch was thrown, a straight right in the opening seconds, then only a couple seconds after the punch did Carini hold her arm up and walk back to her own corner and say she did not want to continue.

The entire "fight"


[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJ2HTJrb8aI"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJ2HTJrb8aI[/ame]



For me, and I think any others here that have been in a ring, the reaction to the punch tells a story but not one of facing overwhelming power.

That was a cop out imo. Now whether that was one designed to be some sort of protest or one where the talk about Khelif got into her head and something cracked is another story.

[Doc_Piptorious]

Imagine dedicating your entire lives to the sport, the sacrifice and commitment that takes to even get to the Olympics to compete against the best women in the world and then some biological dude knocks the living **** out of you. Looking at that Italian girl quitting after 46 seconds was sickening, this is the over correction of diversity and inclusion laid bare for all to see.

Fair play to Harrington saying she won't fight a biological male, I'm sure most of the women are terrified to speak out incase there is backlash. We are living in the ****ing twilight zone.

Harrington has fought her though and has beaten her. So guessing the very fact Harrington got into the ring with Khelif suggests that Harrington knows that Khelif is not a biological male.



Amy Broadhurst, another Irish born boxer, has fought her and has beaten her. Amy has also come out in support of Khelif on this issue today.

[danperkins]

Harrington has fought her though and has beaten her. So guessing the very fact Harrington got into the ring with Khelif suggests that Harrington knows that Khelif is not a biological male.



Amy Broadhurst, another Irish born boxer, has fought her and has beaten her. Amy has also come out in support of Khelif on this issue today.

That's the only reason I've heard of Khelif previously because of Harrington. Maybe she felt pressured back then to keep her mouth shut and had to suck it up but now she can? I dunno maybe she ll comment on it.

Interesting to hear what comes out of this and some might not want to run the risk of speaking out even now. It's a **** show.

[Mark79]

Interesting to her Steve Bunce say that Khelif isn't considered to be a particularly devastating puncher, whatever the arguments about her testosterone levels.

That was only her 5th stoppage.

As for Carini, she just seems to be a bit of a flake.

[ame]https://twitter.com/jp_wanderer/status/1819359804801839613[/ame]

[Doc_Piptorious]

That's the only reason I've heard of Khelif previously because of Harrington. Maybe she felt pressured back then to keep her mouth shut and had to suck it up but now she can?

Interesting to hear what comes out of this and some might not want to run the risk of speaking out even now.

Kelly Harrington pressured about speaking out or making comments?

Not paid too much attention to her here in Ireland over the past four to six years then, especially since she won gold at the last Olympics?

When it comes to making comments via twitter or through certain interviewers she could never be regarded as being backwards in coming forwards.


Think the very fact a number of her past opponents have come out straight away to back Khelif says a hell of a lot. And that's fighters that have beaten her and those beaten by her.


Not exactly sure what could come out that would be "interesting" though.

Khelif is biologically a woman.

She was born a woman.

So all the tittle tattle in the media and from airheads like the Harry Potter writer about Khelif having been a man before is just bullcrap being spouted to further their own agendas on certain topics.

We saw what that sort of made up crap can cause in Southport this week.


Now if it is a thing that folk born with genetic advantages have to be forced to not be able to compete in sports, well then they need to apply that in both the paid and unpaid ranks and across pretty much the entire spectrum of sport for it to be fair.

Would be a very different story if Khelif was found to be taking some sort of PEDs or growth enhancers from a younger age, but seems everything to do with her appears to be simply down to a genetic lottery.