Racism in Football

[Kenneth]

Then comes the old Welsh isn't a race argument, or 'card'

Personally I have less of an issue with people using the phrase 'x cunt' where x is a variable that the recipient has control over, e.g. You Audi driving cunt, or you athiest cunt, or you manc loving cunt. But where x is something outside of their control then that is a different matter and are pretty equivalent, be it black, welsh, tall, female, ginger (I suppose they could dye it).

[Chrono]

- Intended insult for sure, not 100% sure of the racism, why not use a derogatory term instead of the 'plain' black?

That's the thing, someone who isn't racist wouldn't see black as being insulting nor would that come in to an insult but from a football related argument this is the word he chooses to precursor cunt with. If it was flipped and Terry would be called a white cunt it wouldn't actually be any different because the target is the colour of the skin regardless of the colour itself not being derogatory.

In relation to the Welsh point I don't know really. I've been called lots of things that would certainly be classed as racist but I find it amusing more than offensive but then I've never suffered serious discrimination.

[Kenneth]

I didn't know you were welsh Chrono.

[Norbs]

On a related side note, I've never used the term Welsh cunt but in my experience I've noticed that most of the Welsh are in fact cunts. Funny that. Moving on

[whitetext ] [/whitetext]

[Craig_H]

If you call someone a black cunt it's because you are using the black as a negative in the same way as cunt. It wasn't observational and something that wouldn't come out of your mouth under such circumstances without intended racism. You could argue that calling someone a sheep shagger is racist too but it's more comical than anything serious although I would imagine some might take offence.

If it wasn't inherantly racist then why didn't he call him a cunt?

I dont think you can regard the black bit as purely an adjective tbh. I can accept that the main thrust is calling him a cunt, but the use of the word black in this context would certainly be intended as derogatory and hence racist. Actually, I hate the welsh so welsh cunt would be equivalent

Fair points about why calling people any other kind of cunt is deemed fine in most circles though.

Agree with both of these posts.

If Terry merely mentioned 'black' in the sense of an adjective then, if it had been Joey Barton he'd had the altercation with, would he have called him a 'white cunt'? Clearly not, he'd have just said 'cunt' with no reference to his skin colour.

By calling Ferdinand a 'black cunt', Terry is viewing Anton Ferdinand's skin colour as a negative and using it against him. Eg, racism.

[Fivex]

So the Met are launching a formal investigation...

[Norbs]

Agree with both of these posts.

If Terry merely mentioned 'black' in the sense of an adjective then, if it had been Joey Barton he'd had the altercation with, would he have called him a 'white cunt'? Clearly not, he'd have just said 'cunt' with no reference to his skin colour.

By calling Ferdinand a 'black cunt', Terry is viewing Anton Ferdinand's skin colour as a negative and using it against him. Eg, racism.

Correct

[Ben_Itez]

If you call someone a black cunt it's because you are using the black as a negative in the same way as cunt. It wasn't observational and something that wouldn't come out of your mouth under such circumstances without intended racism. You could argue that calling someone a sheep shagger is racist too but it's more comical than anything serious although I would imagine some might take offence.

If it wasn't inherantly racist then why didn't he call him a cunt?

Didnt someone get charged recently with racially abusing Craig Bellamy at a match (think it was while playing for Cardiff last season or perhaps the national team) and the term they used was sheep shagger.

*Goes off to investigate further*

[Craig_H]

Didnt someone get charged recently with racially abusing Craig Bellamy at a match (think it was while playing for Cardiff last season or perhaps the national team) and the term they used was sheep shagger.

*Goes off to investigate further*

Can i suggest you dont google 'sheep shagging'?

[rudedog]

A possible angle of where daft old boy Whelan may be coming from. I'll ask some of the more reactionary to try and see the fine line between terms that I am trying to highlight and question.


[Can Opening]

It is IMO a tad absurd that when someone calls someone else a black cunt the issue is about the use of the word black. If he'd called him a ******, Wog or Coon etc then throw the book at him, absolutely, but I don't see the insult in being called black?

I don't see it worse to be a black cunt than a plain old bog standard cunt. Better than being a stupid cunt or an ugly cunt even? If someone calls Lampard a fat cunt, that is ok? Paul Scholes a ginger cunt? Closer to the point, how about Ryan Giggs a welsh cunt?

[Can Wide Open]

I grew up in wales, not quite the same racist baggage I accept, but my point is if someone calls me a sheep shagger there's a racist insult there. An assumption about me personally based on my race. If someone calls me a Welsh Cunt it's a plain old insult there's no race based pre-judgement (prejudice).

[Worms Everywhere]

If the extent of Terry's crime is that he said 'black' in amongst a string of other adjectives, I do have some sympathy for Dave Whelans stance. It's not a gentlemans game anymore, withstanding some unpleasantness has become a neccessity in most sports, even cricket.

Without getting into the debate about role models and TV coverage for which any anti-social behaviour such as swearing or spitting must be considered, or the general question of whether its right or wrong; The question I ask is whether it was a racial insult designed to insult the race rather than the person?

I'd argue not. Terry is an odious horrible cunt, it's well documented. But I don't think he or his vile comments are inherantly racist. Just horrible.

[puts on tin hat]

Calling some a black cunt is like saying you are worse than a normal cunt - that's where the problem is.

[Slinky Skills]

If you call someone a black cunt it's because you are using the black as a negative in the same way as cunt. It wasn't observational and something that wouldn't come out of your mouth under such circumstances without intended racism. You could argue that calling someone a sheep shagger is racist too but it's more comical than anything serious although I would imagine some might take offence.

If it wasn't inherantly racist then why didn't he call him a cunt?

I'm Welsh but I wouldn't take any offence to it, we've always been called sheep shaggers so it doesn't matter it doesn't affect me in any way.

Whilst on the subject of sheep shaggers, out of curiosity - why do the Welsh get called sheep shaggers?

There are probably just as many if not more sheep in Northern Ireland, England and Scotland than there is in Wales.

The only conclusion I can come to is that someone from Wales at some point genuinely did get caught shagging a sheep.

As for John Terry, I'm sorry but in this day and age you CANNOT get away with calling someone a black cunt.

As someone has already pointed out it would be a sackable offence in any job.

He deserves the book thrown at him if this is true. The same applies to Suarez too however I don't believe he did say anything to Evra.

[Ben_Itez]

I googled Craig Bellamy Sheep Shagger!

The first three results were facebook pages dedicated to Craig Bellamy the sheep shagging welsh cunt!


Anyway it was the Brighton game in the CC where the sheepshagging complaints originated from. From what i gather it was a Kick it Out official who made the complaint. Doubt Bellamy is that bothered.

Swansea fans sing Sheep Sheep Sheep Shagger to themselves apparently

If someone shouted Oi Bellamy you sheep shagging welsh cunt then maybe that could be deemed racist due to the 'welsh cunt' label. However, if it was an english person how could that be racist? Arent we the same race? Xenophobic or regionalist maybe but racist? Im not really sure. It's all a bit confusing these days.

[Red_Polo]

Whilst on the subject of sheep shaggers, out of curiosity - why do the Welsh get called sheep shaggers?

There are probably just as many if not more sheep in Northern Ireland, England and Scotland than there is in Wales.

Lots of other people did have it thrown at them, particularly the Scottish. But Wales has a reputation for having mountains chock full of sheep that only New Zealand really beats, and that's why it stuck for Wales not elsewhere.

It's obviously not PC to use it but I do find it bemusing when folk find it difficult to differentiate between someone saying that versus 'black cunt'.

[RedReet]

Agree with both of these posts.

If Terry merely mentioned 'black' in the sense of an adjective then, if it had been Joey Barton he'd had the altercation with, would he have called him a 'white cunt'? Clearly not, he'd have just said 'cunt' with no reference to his skin colour.

By calling Ferdinand a 'black cunt', Terry is viewing Anton Ferdinand's skin colour as a negative and using it against him. Eg, racism.

If I asked you to describe Barton in 3 words on the spot, do you think you'd refer to him as white?

If you were asked the same about Ferdinand, do you think you might mention that he's black, and is it then more acceptable because it's said in a calm manner?

I also don't think Terry would just call Barton a cunt he'd personalise it, with Scouse cunt or something.

[Red_Polo]

I also don't think Terry would just call Barton a cunt he'd personalise it, with Scouse cunt or something.

He might well do and the insult would be that bit more unsavoury for it, but it's not in the same league when it comes to harmful ignorance really is it?