OK... so heres the question!

[FatTony]

Can't say I agree here mate, I think on the whole, Rafa's transfers have all worked pretty well. Alonso, Sissoko and Garcia have had a big impact on the team/squad, and I'm sure Kuyt will too. There have been a few bad 'uns but who at the time would have thought that Morientes would have flopped so badly. I think that the big problem lies in his hands being tied all the time due to our financial problems. We at the mo, can afford 1 £10m player a year with a few cheaper squad players, when in reality we've needed to bring in 3-4 £10m+ players. The likes of Crouch, Bellamy and Pennant are all decent squad players who try hard for the team, but if we're going to compete at the top level, they're just not good enough. Until we get some financing in though, this is what Rafa has to work with.

It's going to take a long time though I think to sort out the reserves/youth set up. Let's face it, our first team squad is thin!

I don't think I'd class Alonso as being a big impact player, he's reliable, but not dynamic, and so far this season, to be honest, average.

I'd class Sissoko as a little above average at the moment, the jury is still out as its too early. He can defend yes, he can win a tackle, but the rest of his game is average.

Garcia is extremely inconsistent, but has a habit of scoring a cracker out of nothing...at very important times. I like Garcia, but more often that not, his passing and ball retention is abysmal.

Rafa's transfers have been average at best, I can't see it any other way.

Everyone raves about Kuyt, but I don't see a goal scorer. Sure he works hard and he has some qualities, but he's so far not justified the adulation that he receives (which is always based on work rate, and not talent).

Crouch, an average player on the whole, Bellamy was a good buy I think, definitley adds something to the team, Pennant.....well.

Looking at these transfers, who would fit into a Manu, Barcalona, Chelsea, Arsenal, Bayetn Munich side in the starting 11? I'd say only Bellamy and Alonso would get a fairly decent run, but would not be starters.

Rafa spent more money last season that Fergie.

[Depth_Charge]

Rafa needs to start learning from his mistakes instead of repeating them. Early season poor form and mass rotation have not given us a solid platform from which to build and we're continually playing catch up. Experimentation that hasn't worked has cost us this time around and tactically he has been shown to be just as fallible as the next man - especially against an Arsenal side who can really play football.

I'm on his side but the last three days have left a bitter taste in my mouth and Rafa needs to redeem himself somewhat over the next few months because this season is rapidly going down the pan.

[Shaggy]

Sorry but anyone who thinks Rafa should go just hasn't got a clue - however low we all feel. Dear oh dear. What is the world coming to? Do people think we're Newcastle United or something? FFS.

LUDICROUSLY knee-jerk.

[Maestro]

Look, Carra is already a captain in everything but name.
It makes absolutely no sense to change captains - what would that achieve?
We all know how much Stevie relishes having the armband and that it spurs him on. Undermining him by giving Carra the armband does not compute...


...and as far Rafa going. Bollocks. Bollocks to that.

[The Glove]

Sacking Rafa is a pile of bollocks.

People are far far to fickle and need to learn that success comes with time.

Rafa has been here 2 and half years and he has already won more than 99% of managers could ever dream of.

Now I know people will say about how it took Fergie 7 years at Utd before he won the league and while that is correct, times have changed. BUT when was the last time Utd won the league? In fact they've done next to **** all in the major comps for a while really. Finishing bottom of their group in the CL last season, they didnt pressure Chelsea anymore than we did last season and the season before. Infact, you could probably argue that Utd under Fergie were passed it, their bubble had burst. Fergie shouldve gone. No doubt, Mancs wanted shut and someone to come in. We had won the CL, the FA Cup and looked like we would be the major challengers to Chelsea. Power was shifting, they were not happy.

Now, Mancs, like us will have wanted shut of the old drunk, yet they stuck with him and ok, they havent been ****ed 6-3 at home, but Id take that over being made to look ***** in Europe like they did last season, but look at them now. They are, and it pains me to say it, a class side. They play the best football, anyone can see. Would they be where they are now, if they had ****ed Fergie off? No, I knwo they wouldnt because whoever wouldve come in wouldve changed things and it wouldve took time.

We should stick with Rafa, let him finish what he has started. With the Dubai people on board we will Rival Man Utd both on and off the field and 6-3 home defeats will be a thing of the past.

Rafa should shoulder some of the blame for last night of course but the team itself should take more than its share. Even under the dark days of Houllier, Evean or Souness, we never got ****ed that bad, yet you could argue at times we played worse football. At 1-1 we were playing some good stuff and again, like Saturday when 2-1 down, at 5-3 (jesus) we looked like we might do it, only to be caught out and sucked in.

I dont want Rafa out at all. I want him to be given the tools to finish the job. If it doesnt work, then I think he'd be big enough to acknowlege it.

[Muttly]

I think the greatest difference between us and arsenal was how clinical we were. I had a look at skysports match reports for both cup games as it read like this:

Shots on
Liverpool 9+2 = 11
Arsenal 7+4 = 11

Shots off
Liverpool 6+9 = 15
Arsenal 1+0= 1

Shots Blocked
Liverpool 1+4=5
Arsenal 0+1=1

Total Shots
Liverpool 16+15=31
Arsenal 8+5=13

Goals
Liverpool 1+1=2
Arsenal 3+6=9

This all indicates that a good striker/poacher would go a long way to helping us compete with Arsenal, Chelsea and Manchester Utd.

[Shaggy]

Sacking Rafa is a pile of bollocks.

People are far far to fickle and need to learn that success comes with time.

Rafa has been here 2 and half years and he has already won more than 99% of managers could ever dream of.

Now I know people will say about how it took Fergie 7 years at Utd before he won the league and while that is correct, times have changed. BUT when was the last time Utd won the league? In fact they've done next to **** all in the major comps for a while really. Finishing bottom of their group in the CL last season, they didnt pressure Chelsea anymore than we did last season and the season before. Infact, you could probably argue that Utd under Fergie were passed it, their bubble had burst. Fergie shouldve gone. No doubt, Mancs wanted shut and someone to come in. We had won the CL, the FA Cup and looked like we would be the major challengers to Chelsea. Power was shifting, they were not happy.

Now, Mancs, like us will have wanted shut of the old drunk, yet they stuck with him and ok, they havent been ****ed 6-3 at home, but Id take that over being made to look ***** in Europe like they did last season, but look at them now. They are, and it pains me to say it, a class side. They play the best football, anyone can see. Would they be where they are now, if they had ****ed Fergie off? No, I knwo they wouldnt because whoever wouldve come in wouldve changed things and it wouldve took time.

We should stick with Rafa, let him finish what he has started. With the Dubai people on board we will Rival Man Utd both on and off the field and 6-3 home defeats will be a thing of the past.

Rafa should shoulder some of the blame for last night of course but the team itself should take more than its share. Even under the dark days of Houllier, Evean or Souness, we never got ****ed that bad, yet you could argue at times we played worse football. At 1-1 we were playing some good stuff and again, like Saturday when 2-1 down, at 5-3 (jesus) we looked like we might do it, only to be caught out and sucked in.

I dont want Rafa out at all. I want him to be given the tools to finish the job. If it doesnt work, then I think he'd be big enough to acknowlege it.

A-****ING-MEN brother. A-****ing-men.

This thread should now be closed, as there's nothing more to say on the matter.

[Fierce]

Sacking Rafa is a pile of bollocks.

People are far far to fickle and need to learn that success comes with time.

Rafa has been here 2 and half years and he has already won more than 99% of managers could ever dream of.

Now I know people will say about how it took Fergie 7 years at Utd before he won the league and while that is correct, times have changed. BUT when was the last time Utd won the league? In fact they've done next to **** all in the major comps for a while really. Finishing bottom of their group in the CL last season, they didnt pressure Chelsea anymore than we did last season and the season before. Infact, you could probably argue that Utd under Fergie were passed it, their bubble had burst. Fergie shouldve gone. No doubt, Mancs wanted shut and someone to come in. We had won the CL, the FA Cup and looked like we would be the major challengers to Chelsea. Power was shifting, they were not happy.

Now, Mancs, like us will have wanted shut of the old drunk, yet they stuck with him and ok, they havent been ****ed 6-3 at home, but Id take that over being made to look ***** in Europe like they did last season, but look at them now. They are, and it pains me to say it, a class side. They play the best football, anyone can see. Would they be where they are now, if they had ****ed Fergie off? No, I knwo they wouldnt because whoever wouldve come in wouldve changed things and it wouldve took time.

We should stick with Rafa, let him finish what he has started. With the Dubai people on board we will Rival Man Utd both on and off the field and 6-3 home defeats will be a thing of the past.

Rafa should shoulder some of the blame for last night of course but the team itself should take more than its share. Even under the dark days of Houllier, Evean or Souness, we never got ****ed that bad, yet you could argue at times we played worse football. At 1-1 we were playing some good stuff and again, like Saturday when 2-1 down, at 5-3 (jesus) we looked like we might do it, only to be caught out and sucked in.

I dont want Rafa out at all. I want him to be given the tools to finish the job. If it doesnt work, then I think he'd be big enough to acknowlege it.

Great post mate

[Slim]

I think Rafa is the man for the job. We've won enough under him in his first 2 seasons, however, I do not believe the guy can spot talent, in fact, when it comes to bringing players in, I think he's one of the worst in the premiership (based on transfer kitty)

He's a manager, he's methodically and has a painstaking approach to detail, but we need to get somebody else in to decide on what players we should be buying. He's brought the odd one or two half decent buys in, but name one storming transfer?

Leave Rafa to the management of the team, bring someone else in asap to look after our transfers.

I'm really not sure somebody to look after transfers is the way to go. Do you mean like a Director of Football type roll? If you do I can't think of any club where that has worked. I don't like the idea of somebody else bringing in players that the manager then has to work with, like it or lump it style. What happens if Rafa doesn't rate the players he is given?

[Slim]

Sacking Rafa is a pile of bollocks.

People are far far to fickle and need to learn that success comes with time.

Rafa has been here 2 and half years and he has already won more than 99% of managers could ever dream of.

Now I know people will say about how it took Fergie 7 years at Utd before he won the league and while that is correct, times have changed. BUT when was the last time Utd won the league? In fact they've done next to **** all in the major comps for a while really. Finishing bottom of their group in the CL last season, they didnt pressure Chelsea anymore than we did last season and the season before. Infact, you could probably argue that Utd under Fergie were passed it, their bubble had burst. Fergie shouldve gone. No doubt, Mancs wanted shut and someone to come in. We had won the CL, the FA Cup and looked like we would be the major challengers to Chelsea. Power was shifting, they were not happy.

Now, Mancs, like us will have wanted shut of the old drunk, yet they stuck with him and ok, they havent been ****ed 6-3 at home, but Id take that over being made to look ***** in Europe like they did last season, but look at them now. They are, and it pains me to say it, a class side. They play the best football, anyone can see. Would they be where they are now, if they had ****ed Fergie off? No, I knwo they wouldnt because whoever wouldve come in wouldve changed things and it wouldve took time.

We should stick with Rafa, let him finish what he has started. With the Dubai people on board we will Rival Man Utd both on and off the field and 6-3 home defeats will be a thing of the past.

Rafa should shoulder some of the blame for last night of course but the team itself should take more than its share. Even under the dark days of Houllier, Evean or Souness, we never got ****ed that bad, yet you could argue at times we played worse football. At 1-1 we were playing some good stuff and again, like Saturday when 2-1 down, at 5-3 (jesus) we looked like we might do it, only to be caught out and sucked in.

I dont want Rafa out at all. I want him to be given the tools to finish the job. If it doesnt work, then I think he'd be big enough to acknowlege it.

At last sanity prevails!!! Quality post mate.

[zimbo]

Endorse all that The Glove said.

Without wishing to underestimate the depth of feeling about this result, nor question the inadequacy of much of last night’s performance (by players and management alike), there’s certainly a need to keep some perspective.

It’s clearly not the end of the world – let alone the end of our season, despite what the gleeful media hacks would have you believe. It was, no doubt, a terrible, terrible result which raised serious questions about the ability of our players to perform to the standard expected of them. This was perhaps the most significant point for me – we don’t currently have the personnel to play high-tempo, one-touch football which ultimately relies on speed, of thought, of body and of distribution. Against an Arsenal team proficient in all three we were shown up as distinctly second best.

But, though it obviously hurts to admit that, I for one am not ready to reach for the razor blades just yet.

Because I’ve been through a hell of a lot worse with this club and come through. Genuine tragedies, the kind that impact on your whole life, not just a few days spent being almightily pissed off and searching for the nearest door to slam.

A month from now things will (hopefully) look a lot different and this result will be an unhappy memory.

We’ll lose more games, I’m fairly certain of that. And people will rightly be upset and will come on here or elsewhere to blow off steam and point out our deficiencies.
No problem with that. I’ll be doing it myself.

But just remember.
We’ve been through worse. A lot worse.

[Red_hot]

Sacking Rafa is a pile of bollocks.

People are far far to fickle and need to learn that success comes with time.

Rafa has been here 2 and half years and he has already won more than 99% of managers could ever dream of.

Now I know people will say about how it took Fergie 7 years at Utd before he won the league and while that is correct, times have changed. BUT when was the last time Utd won the league? In fact they've done next to **** all in the major comps for a while really. Finishing bottom of their group in the CL last season, they didnt pressure Chelsea anymore than we did last season and the season before. Infact, you could probably argue that Utd under Fergie were passed it, their bubble had burst. Fergie shouldve gone. No doubt, Mancs wanted shut and someone to come in. We had won the CL, the FA Cup and looked like we would be the major challengers to Chelsea. Power was shifting, they were not happy.

Now, Mancs, like us will have wanted shut of the old drunk, yet they stuck with him and ok, they havent been ****ed 6-3 at home, but Id take that over being made to look ***** in Europe like they did last season, but look at them now. They are, and it pains me to say it, a class side. They play the best football, anyone can see. Would they be where they are now, if they had ****ed Fergie off? No, I knwo they wouldnt because whoever wouldve come in wouldve changed things and it wouldve took time.

We should stick with Rafa, let him finish what he has started. With the Dubai people on board we will Rival Man Utd both on and off the field and 6-3 home defeats will be a thing of the past.

Rafa should shoulder some of the blame for last night of course but the team itself should take more than its share. Even under the dark days of Houllier, Evean or Souness, we never got ****ed that bad, yet you could argue at times we played worse football. At 1-1 we were playing some good stuff and again, like Saturday when 2-1 down, at 5-3 (jesus) we looked like we might do it, only to be caught out and sucked in.

I dont want Rafa out at all. I want him to be given the tools to finish the job. If it doesnt work, then I think he'd be big enough to acknowlege it.

Yay!

(Now get back to work!)

[FatTony]

I'm really not sure somebody to look after transfers is the way to go. Do you mean like a Director of Football type roll? If you do I can't think of any club where that has worked. I don't like the idea of somebody else bringing in players that the manager then has to work with, like it or lump it style. What happens if Rafa doesn't rate the players he is given?

I know its an odd one, but Rafa works best when he has a sqaud of talent.

He inherited a fine squad at Valencia and took it to the next level, so he is obviously a great manager, but I'm not convinced he's great when it comes to transfers.

Maybe he's a little too cautious in his approach and wants to build a vast squad, but he's doing so with a level of mediocrity.

Maybe now he has enough players in reserve for each position, he'll now start to bring in only top class players, 1 or 2 a season?

Time will tell. We're still the most successful team this century so far, and last century to boot. Have that Arsene.

[Big Dave]

I don't think I'd class Alonso as being a big impact player, he's reliable, but not dynamic, and so far this season, to be honest, average.

I'd class Sissoko as a little above average at the moment, the jury is still out as its too early. He can defend yes, he can win a tackle, but the rest of his game is average.

Garcia is extremely inconsistent, but has a habit of scoring a cracker out of nothing...at very important times. I like Garcia, but more often that not, his passing and ball retention is abysmal.

Rafa's transfers have been average at best, I can't see it any other way.

Everyone raves about Kuyt, but I don't see a goal scorer. Sure he works hard and he has some qualities, but he's so far not justified the adulation that he receives (which is always based on work rate, and not talent).

Crouch, an average player on the whole, Bellamy was a good buy I think, definitley adds something to the team, Pennant.....well.

Looking at these transfers, who would fit into a Manu, Barcalona, Chelsea, Arsenal, Bayetn Munich side in the starting 11? I'd say only Bellamy and Alonso would get a fairly decent run, but would not be starters.

Rafa spent more money last season that Fergie.

All fair points, and I agree with pretty much all you say. I too am a little dissappointed with Kuyt's goal return so far, but I really think that he's trying to do too much at the moment, rather than concentrating on scoring goals. As far as spending more than Man U goes, I really think that my previous point was valid in that we needed a complete overhaul of the squad and the numbers needed had required the amounts spent. Man U are in a position where they can spend big money on one or two players which is the position we need to get ourselves into. Bit of a vicious circle really!!!

The point about who would get into the teams you named is not particularly valid either I dont think. I think that Rafa has made much better signings than Mourinho at Chelsea for expample, especially when you consider how much Chelsea spent per player compared to us! I can't think of one player that he has signed this last year that has had any impact in their 1st team and certainly would not be good enough for any of the teams you listed.

It's going to be a long time before we can assess the success of the youth signings that Rafa has made, and like you said, we have signed a fair few average players (more from neccessity than what Rafa actually wants im sure), but I think that when (PLEASE) the funds become available to him we will see much better quality being brought into the squad.

[Big Dave]

Maybe now he has enough players in reserve for each position, he'll now start to bring in only top class players, 1 or 2 a season?

I think that's the point I'm trying to make