Is Kuyt above criticism?

[ronan]

i wouldnt bat an eyelid if rafa said he was selling all 4 of our strikers in the summer

but weve already agreed to voronin who is another crouch/kuyt imo
weve had too much mediocrity of late

if we dont sign high quality players up front and for the wide positions we will win **** all again next year

our squad as it stands is not good enough to win the premiership
you can talk about luck,bad starts bad refereeing decisions but they all hide the facts.
our squad as it stands is not good enough to win the premiership

[Parm]

I think he is just the type of player most people like.

For me he could put more of his chances away.

If we could get 12m+ for him I´d sell.

I agree with you about him putting more chances away, dunno about selling him just yet, also dunno if we would get 12mill, but if we did it would be tempting.

[alunevans]

Is this league goals or overall? Crouch has the best goalscoring record for us, both in terms of actual goals scored and goals per game. He's played fewer games than Kuyt & Bellamy, and has more goals.

How convincing does a case have to be?

It's a sad state of affairs, but Crouch is our best striker.

I agree with both clauses of that final sentence

[Darth Marty]

for me its simple, we have had to "put up" with mediocrity for years due to lack of financle muscle and as such we have had to buy players who just arent quite there.....bellamy, crouch, kuyt are perfect examples of this, again for me its simple, splash however much cash it takes to get one of the best in. Eto, klose, villa, torres, even shevchenko or van nistelrooy ( i actually think sheva is EXACTLY the type of player we need) and then lets see where we go.......
I just really hope we do get someone world class in or this conversation will be exactly the same next year.....

[FowlerLeftFoot]

4 goals from open play in 7 starts


7 goals if u are counting the 3 penalties.

You're in danger of comparing, if I may borrow a phrase, apples and yellow.

All Fowler's goalscoring statistics 'prove' is that he has scored some goals which isn't so much a proof as a tautology.

18 League titles 'prove' we won the League 18 times. This is commonly held to indicate that we were the best team in those 18 seasons.

Statistics are at best supporting evidence for any contention about whether a player should be in the team. If you want another statistic, how many Premiership goals has Robbie Fowler scored from open play?

You know the answer. So what does that suggest?

[Neil Young]

4 goals from open play in 7 starts


7 goals if u are counting the 3 penalties.

Nope, I'm afraid that's wrong. He has scored 0 goals from open play in the Premiership.

Now you may think that by concentrating only on Premiership goals I'm being unduly selective and choosing only those stats that back-up my point of view. I could think your decision to give me his general stats (which wasn't what I asked) is similarly slective on your part because those stats look better for your argument. That's the trouble with stats, they don't tell you everything and, if you're not careful, they don't really tell you anything.

However, if we accept that these stats can be meaningful, then we have to ask why the once-great Robbie Fowler has not scored in open play against Premiership defences whereas he has scored against weakened Reading and Arsenal defences in the League Cup and twice in a meaningless tie in Istanbul in the CL.

[FowlerLeftFoot]

weakened reading and arsenal defence?? i dont think so, they put out their best defence they can come out with for both games. Meaningless CL game? Every CL game is a big game.
How many times has he started in the premiership? 3 times if i am not wrong. 2 away games and 1 home game. A total of 383 mins of EPL football since the start of the season. 3 goals + 1 assist in the 383 mins is not bad at all. He scored and contributed in the games he was selected to play, he didnt score against the "bigger" opponents simply because he wasnt given the chance to do it, not because he is not able to.
I find it amazing that people want to discredit Fowler's ability and contributions.
The stats dont lie.

Nope, I'm afraid that's wrong. He has scored 0 goals from open play in the Premiership.

Now you may think that by concentrating only on Premiership goals I'm being unduly selective and choosing only those stats that back-up my point of view. I could think your decision to give me his general stats (which wasn't what I asked) is similarly slective on your part because those stats look better for your argument. That's the trouble with stats, they don't tell you everything and, if you're not careful, they don't really tell you anything.

However, if we accept that these stats can be meaningful, then we have to ask why the once-great Robbie Fowler has not scored in open play against Premiership defences whereas he has scored against weakened Reading and Arsenal defences in the League Cup and twice in a meaningless tie in Istanbul in the CL.

[Neil Young]

weakened reading and arsenal defence?? i dont think so, they put out their best defence they can come out with for both games.

Er, for Arsenal, four out of the back five that night (Almunia, Traore, Djourou and Hoyte) are widely acknowledged as reserves. Reading had a reserve keeper and, I don't know their first team well enough but they have admitted playing weakened sides in the cup competitions.

Meaningless CL game? Every CL game is a big game.

In your opinion maybe. You can't buttress your opinion with, er, your opinion. That's not evidence of anything.

However, the official site's match report rather concurs with me:

Of the 11 players who started the final against AC Milan on May 25 2005, only Jerzy Dudek, Jamie Carragher, Xabi Alonso and John Arne Riise started a game that was deemed meaningless the moment Liverpool's victory over PSV coupled with Galatasaray's defeat to Bordeaux ensured the Reds topped Group C with the Turks finishing bottom.

How many times has he started in the premiership? 3 times if i am not wrong. 2 away games and 1 home game. A total of 383 mins of EPL football since the start of the season. 3 goals + 1 assist in the 383 mins is not bad at all. He scored and contributed in the games he was selected to play, he didnt score against the "bigger" opponents simply because he wasnt given the chance to do it, not because he is not able to.

3 goals? Or 3 penalties, all of which were won by someone else.

The question is, why isn't he given the chance? Your only explanation is that Rafa is a hypocrite for some reason and won't play him because he's obstinate. This is Rafa who was described two weeks ago as the arch-pragmatist by playing Bellamy against Barcelona in spite of his misbehaviour the week before. Why does he not play Fowler? Oh yeah, he doesn't like him and would rather risk losing a match than play him.

I find it amazing that people want to discredit Fowler's ability and contributions.

They don't. There is nothing I (and everyone else on this site) would love more than to have Robbie Fowler playing at anything like the level he used to. Why is it that only you can see how brilliant Fowler is when many of us can't? Oh, yeah, I forgot, we're all biased, you're the only one who can see the truth of it.

The stats dont lie.

Have you read anything I've said about selectivity in statistical analysis?

Still, have it your way.

[tomasjj]

You have to agree though Neil, not even Buffon or Cech would have saved Robbies finish against Reading...

[Neil Young]

Of course he should stand out by scoring goals against weaker teams and he's a brilliant finisher still (as his spot-kick record this season suggests as well). I just wish that overall he was anything like as effective as he used to be.

But...

[thesilverfoxlfc]

Ive been very disapponted with him.

I love his passion and work rate but we need him to score goals and thats what defines him as a success.

[tomasjj]

Of course he should stand out by scoring goals against weaker teams and he's a brilliant finisher still (as his spot-kick record this season suggests as well). I just wish that overall he was anything like as effective as he used to be.

But...

He isn't.
I agree.

Still, I want him to be given a cameo appearance now and again as our current lot are too wasteful.

[FowlerLeftFoot]

I respect your opinion, you have your point but we are both biased to our own interpretation.
I maintain my opinion that Fowler is an effective striker who will score goals when he is given a fair chance in the team.

..

[Neil Young]

I respect your opinion, you have your point but we are both biased to our own interpretation.
I maintain my opinion that Fowler is an effective striker who will score goals when he is given a fair chance in the team.

I like your editing of my comment.

Yes, you've got a fair point there. Likewise, I respect your opinion
You have every right to be wrong

[tomasjj]

I like your editing of my comment.

Yes, you've got a fair point there. Likewise, I respect your opinion
You have every right to be wrong

Speaking like a true underhand liberal there.