The paper that cannot be mentioned

[Deadlogic]

Yes I agree. However, if all people are going to do is kick off and call him a **** then how is that helping? As I said in my original post. RS4 managed to respond to a post similar to Fredo's without resorting to name calling etc so why can't other people? Again like I said, you are not going to educate someone by being abusive towards them as that only gets peoples backs up and makes them defensive. If someone had maybe bothered to pm Fredo or posted in an intelligent manner then maybe they may have had more success. Instead, all that's happened is one poster has ended up leaving.

I think you're living in cloud cookoo land, mate.

Expecting everyone to respond in a calm manner on any forum, to any delicate subject is never going to happen, is it? You see how angry people get about Gerrards hair, so asking for total calm on this subject was never going to happen.

Now, I know you didn't say 'everyone' (before you reply asking 'where did I say everyone'), but there were (as you said yourself) a few people who did try and be reasonable with him.

Personally, I would've tried to reason with him, point him the direction of the right information, and ask him how and why he had the viewpoint he has, but at the same time - I can totally understand why some people reacted the way they did.

[Neil Young]

We dont live in an ideal world though and to be fair, the tone of Fredos posts encouraged such a reaction. Its not like he was asking why, he just dismissed it.

You're right, Fredo could have been more sensitive and we don't live in an ideal world where everybody always knows exactly what they "should" do which maybe is why it would be good idea for people to try to tolerate people who say things with which they disagree.

[Red_hot]

I think you're living in cloud cookoo land, mate.

Expecting everyone to respond in a calm manner on any forum, to any delicate subject is never going to happen, is it? You see how angry people get about Gerrards hair, so asking for total calm on this subject was never going to happen.

Now, I know you didn't say 'everyone' (before you reply asking 'where did I say everyone'), but there were (as you said yourself) a few people who did try and be reasonable with him.

Personally, I would've tried to reason with him, point him the direction of the right information, and ask him how and why he had the viewpoint he has, but at the same time - I can totally understand why some people reacted the way they did.

I'm not expecting everyone to reply in a calm manner. I've been on here long enough to know thats not possible. I'm saying that people should try to think a bit more before they post. It's not as if it's a face to face argument. You have time to sit and think before you post but some people clearly don't.

For what it's worth, I think what Fredo said was stupid but as I have said previously as soon as you start insulting people your argument falls flat on it's face and people stop listening. If people who were there (RS4/Iceman) can reply in a non aggressive manner then so can other people.

[Deadlogic]

I'm not expecting everyone to reply in a calm manner. I've been on here long enough to know thats not possible. I'm saying that people should try to think a bit more before they post. It's not as if it's a face to face argument. You have time to sit and think before you post but some people clearly don't.

For what it's worth, I think what Fredo said was stupid but as I have said previously as soon as you start insulting people your argument falls flat on it's face and people stop listening. If people who were there (RS4/Iceman) can reply in a non aggressive manner then so can other people.

Well, fair enough.

We're both entitled to our opinions eh? It seems on this subject, that we see things a bit differently.

I've (hopefully) said all I can on this matter now.

[Guest]

I've probably been stupid and in hindsight I could have chosen my words before tackling this sensible issue. I meant no harm to the people on here and certainly didn't deserve to be treated as such, that's why I've been put off and moved out of the debate. If we can't debate clearly as adults, then what's the point. I don't deserve to be called a **** for having my opinions.

As regards to Hillsborough, I watched it on TV and saw live what happened there. I was still a kid, and I wasn't aware of all this rag's story until I've seen people talking about it on KT, some 4 or 5 years ago. I can now understand people's stance on the matter, as regards the boycott, there's no problem in that.

But I have a philosophy in life that I'll stand for until I'm no more part of this world. That's the way I am and I won't change. My point was that it was an individual's mistake at the time, and the paper backed their chief editorialist on the matter. They fully deserve the vitriol put at them because they did more harm than it was needed to the families of these victims, and painted a picture on scousers which deeply hurt the people. The boycott is legitimate, there's no question about that, and I wasn't dismissing it at all.

Now, it's been 18 years since that happened. People working in that rag now shouldn't be held responsible for what's been printed then. It's something, in my own humble opinion, that people should (while still not forgetting about that as a mark or respect to the victims) try to accept the fact that other people can have slightly differing opinions on the issue. But, as it's been said, I don't live there and I haven't been directly involved with it, so I would probably never fully realize that emotions can't be controlled.

I'll say it again, I accept the criticism that I've been receiving, but it won't make me change my opinion, and I hope people could accept that. What I said was never said to harm people, but more to start a sensible debate. I've learned that it can't be possible to have it on that subject, so I'll draw a line in the sand on the subject as from now.

I'm no drama queen (like someone said in a post yesterday), so I don't expect people to agree with me or arse lick me into staying here. I will stay only if people can respect me for having my opinions, without name callings of the type I've been witnessing yesterday*. I won't be posting just to please people or just to *agree* with people with differing opinions than mine. It just isn't interesting from my point of view, if everyone agrees on everything.


*The name calling was mainly from Revo and we privately discussed the matter and I have no problem with him. I never had any in the first place, as I've come to know how he is. I respect that. He's a great fella and character and I like him the way he is and don't expect him to change.

[Darth Marty]

wow, woke up with a hangover and thought, I know, Ill go online and see what my liverpudlian supporting friends are talking about. ****ing walked into a ****storm here havent I?
We all have our opinions about this, Fredo made an error of judgement but the abuse was, in my opinion, unnecessarily harsh on someone who has been a good member and poster.

Obviously emotions run high regarding this whole subject and whilst I can see why the abuse came fredos way I would really like to think that the best fans in the world, thats us remember, could manage to tell him why he was wrong without hounding him out of the forum.
Lately people have been a bit aggressive and its a shame, I like to think I have made some friends on here and we all do share one amazing thing. Liverpool Football Club.
Lets keep it a happy place eh?!
Respect to all of us, by all of us.

[Red_hot]

I've probably been stupid and in hindsight I could have chosen my words before tackling this sensible issue. I meant no harm to the people on here and certainly didn't deserve to be treated as such, that's why I've been put off and moved out of the debate. If we can't debate clearly as adults, then what's the point. I don't deserve to be called a **** for having my opinions.

As regards to Hillsborough, I watched it on TV and saw live what happened there. I was still a kid, and I wasn't aware of all this rag's story until I've seen people talking about it on KT, some 4 or 5 years ago. I can now understand people's stance on the matter, as regards the boycott, there's no problem in that.

But I have a philosophy in life that I'll stand for until I'm no more part of this world. That's the way I am and I won't change. My point was that it was an individual's mistake at the time, and the paper backed their chief editorialist on the matter. They fully deserve the vitriol put at them because they did more harm than it was needed to the families of these victims, and painted a picture on scousers which deeply hurt the people. The boycott is legitimate, there's no question about that, and I wasn't dismissing it at all.

Now, it's been 18 years since that happened. People working in that rag now shouldn't be held responsible for what's been printed then. It's something, in my own humble opinion, that people should (while still not forgetting about that as a mark or respect to the victims) try to accept the fact that other people can have slightly differing opinions on the issue. But, as it's been said, I don't live there and I haven't been directly involved with it, so I would probably never fully realize that emotions can't be controlled.

I'll say it again, I accept the criticism that I've been receiving, but it won't make me change my opinion, and I hope people could accept that. What I said was never said to harm people, but more to start a sensible debate. I've learned that it can't be possible to have it on that subject, so I'll draw a line in the sand on the subject as from now.

I'm no drama queen (like someone said in a post yesterday), so I don't expect people to agree with me or arse lick me into staying here. I will stay only if people can respect me for having my opinions, without name callings of the type I've been witnessing yesterday*. I won't be posting just to please people or just to *agree* with people with differing opinions than mine. It just isn't interesting from my point of view, if everyone agrees on everything.


*The name calling was mainly from Revo and we privately discussed the matter and I have no problem with him. I never had any in the first place, as I've come to know how he is. I respect that. He's a great fella and character and I like him the way he is and don't expect him to change.

[Helios Creed]

It would be nice if we could extend the respect for people's feelings to other sensitive topics. There are many people on this site for whom racism is as serious a subject as Hillsborough and it is ironic that some of the people demanding sensitivity and respect here, are the same people who mocked the opinions of others in a thread on it last week.

I'm not saying we shouldn't respect people's feelings about Hillsborough, I think a bit more respect for people's feelings generally wouldn't go amiss, or is this subject a one-off?

[Helios Creed]

wow, woke up with a hangover and thought, I know, Ill go online and see what my liverpudlian supporting friends are talking about. ****ing walked into a ****storm here havent I?
We all have our opinions about this, Fredo made an error of judgement but the abuse was, in my opinion, unnecessarily harsh on someone who has been a good member and poster.

Obviously emotions run high regarding this whole subject and whilst I can see why the abuse came fredos way I would really like to think that the best fans in the world, thats us remember, could manage to tell him why he was wrong without hounding him out of the forum.
Lately people have been a bit aggressive and its a shame, I like to think I have made some friends on here and we all do share one amazing thing. Liverpool Football Club.
Lets keep it a happy place eh?!
Respect to all of us, by all of us.

Well the good thing is I'm sure a lot of people know more about the boycott and sensitivity to the subject than they did before.

[reddragon]

wow, woke up with a hangover and thought, I know, Ill go online and see what my liverpudlian supporting friends are talking about. ****ing walked into a ****storm here havent I?
We all have our opinions about this, Fredo made an error of judgement but the abuse was, in my opinion, unnecessarily harsh on someone who has been a good member and poster.

Obviously emotions run high regarding this whole subject and whilst I can see why the abuse came fredos way I would really like to think that the best fans in the world, thats us remember, could manage to tell him why he was wrong without hounding him out of the forum.
Lately people have been a bit aggressive and its a shame, I like to think I have made some friends on here and we all do share one amazing thing. Liverpool Football Club.
Lets keep it a happy place eh?!
Respect to all of us, by all of us.

if you've just woke up [like me] and walked into a ****storm how can you make judgements on what was said in a thread which has since disappeared?

[Guest]

It would be nice if we could extend the respect for people's feelings to other sensitive topics. There are many people on this site for whom racism is as serious a subject as Hillsborough and it is ironic that some of the people demanding sensitivity and respect here, are the same people who mocked the opinions of others in a thread on it last week.

I'm not saying we shouldn't respect people's feelings about Hillsborough, I think a bit more respect for people's feelings generally wouldn't go amiss, or is this subject a one-off?

I'm not sure if I understand you fully on that.

In my opinion, racism is a totally different thing. I've also seen people comparing McKenzie to Hitler or something of the sort. Whilst the man should be despised all his life, until he fully apologizes, it's totally ridiculous having that comparison.

Racism shouldn't be accepted at all. If people believe in that, then they should start their own forum and attract people having the same opinions elsewhere. It simply is against every principle we base our lives on.

[The Glove]

. I've probably been stupid and in hindsight I could have chosen my words before tackling this sensible issue. I meant no harm to the people on here and certainly didn't deserve to be treated as such, that's why I've been put off and moved out of the debate. If we can't debate clearly as adults, then what's the point. I don't deserve to be called a **** for having my opinions.

As regards to Hillsborough, I watched it on TV and saw live what happened there. I was still a kid, and I wasn't aware of all this rag's story until I've seen people talking about it on KT, some 4 or 5 years ago. I can now understand people's stance on the matter, as regards the boycott, there's no problem in that.

But I have a philosophy in life that I'll stand for until I'm no more part of this world. That's the way I am and I won't change. My point was that it was an individual's mistake at the time, and the paper backed their chief editorialist on the matter. They fully deserve the vitriol put at them because they did more harm than it was needed to the families of these victims, and painted a picture on scousers which deeply hurt the people. The boycott is legitimate, there's no question about that, and I wasn't dismissing it at all.

Now, it's been 18 years since that happened. People working in that rag now shouldn't be held responsible for what's been printed then. It's something, in my own humble opinion, that people should (while still not forgetting about that as a mark or respect to the victims) try to accept the fact that other people can have slightly differing opinions on the issue. But, as it's been said, I don't live there and I haven't been directly involved with it, so I would probably never fully realize that emotions can't be controlled.

I'll say it again, I accept the criticism that I've been receiving, but it won't make me change my opinion, and I hope people could accept that. What I said was never said to harm people, but more to start a sensible debate. I've learned that it can't be possible to have it on that subject, so I'll draw a line in the sand on the subject as from now.

I'm no drama queen (like someone said in a post yesterday), so I don't expect people to agree with me or arse lick me into staying here. I will stay only if people can respect me for having my opinions, without name callings of the type I've been witnessing yesterday*. I won't be posting just to please people or just to *agree* with people with differing opinions than mine. It just isn't interesting from my point of view, if everyone agrees on everything.


*The name calling was mainly from Revo and we privately discussed the matter and I have no problem with him. I never had any in the first place, as I've come to know how he is. I respect that. He's a great fella and character and I like him the way he is and don't expect him to change.

In fairness though mate, you say you arent going to change but by not being able to change to accommodate peoples feelings on such subjects nothing is going to change.

You say 'I've probably been stupid and in hindsight I could have chosen my words before tackling this sensible issue.' but then go on to say 'I don't deserve to be called a **** for having my opinions.'

Well really, opinions are fine but you need to express them better, which I think you understand but by the same token can you not understand as to why you got called what you did? Expressing your opinions in such a way invite such things on to yourself. Its a 2 way thing mate. If you come across badly, you'll get a bad reply. Im 99% sure that if you had worded yourself better originally you would not have got the reaction you did.

Im sure we are all big enough to see there is fault on both sides but for others to change, you need to as well.

[AFII]

The *** is still a **** paper and will be that until Murdock sells it.

They hunted down the ref in the England game who dissalowed Sol Campbells goal and put up signs at his house how they felt about him, not any nice words.

[Guest]

In fairness though mate, you say you arent going to change but by not being able to change to accommodate peoples feelings on such subjects nothing is going to change.

You say 'I've probably been stupid and in hindsight I could have chosen my words before tackling this sensible issue.' but then go on to say 'I don't deserve to be called a **** for having my opinions.'

Well really, opinions are fine but you need to express them better, which I think you understand but by the same token can you not understand as to why you got called what you did? Expressing your opinions in such a way invite such things on to yourself. Its a 2 way thing mate. If you come across badly, you'll get a bad reply. Im 99% sure that if you had worded yourself better originally you would not have got the reaction you did.

Im sure we are all big enough to see there is fault on both sides but for others to change, you need to as well.

You miss the point mate. I expect people to behave in a 'rational' way, that's all. I don't expect people to change their feelings on that, not at all, but I expect the subject to be debated sensibly, if not at all. Have I made myself clear on that ? Or is it still 'badly worded' ?

[Darth Marty]

if you've just woke up [like me] and walked into a ****storm how can you make judgements on what was said in a thread which has since disappeared?

Mate I can read this whole thread and realise whats happened, hardly rocket science is it?
My point was that recently there has been a whole load of aggressive threads and stances, lets leave it out and get back to being the best supporters ok.