The paper that cannot be mentioned

[Kaip]

ant quote the thread so i'll c + p it



Fredo

Huh what ? I can't have my opinions now ? Bad or wrong ?

FFS ... It's a ****in's circus on here.



Fredo

Ok. I'm off.



Me

Your bang on there fella..................it is a ****in circus with comments like that



Fredo

Well, there's a clown less now as from now. Enjoy it



Me


Fredo............pick your toys back up and stop being a drama queen





Fredo................do you still think you did'nt act like a drama queen

[The Glove]

You miss the point mate. I expect people to behave in a 'rational' way, that's all. I don't expect people to change their feelings on that, not at all, but I expect the subject to be debated sensibly, if not at all. Have I made myself clear on that ? Or is it still 'badly worded' ?

People will behave rationally mate when others do, but yesterday your original posts didnt come across as that.

Correct, you shouldnt get a mouthful and people can act sensibly on the subject but to get that you need do the same. You came across as dismissive and that got peoples backs up. Like I said, there is fault on both sides and for this to not carry on it'd be easier to just admit your faults and move on rather than point blame else were.

[poorscousertommy]

I have just read this thread for the first time and thought I would put my two penny's worth in.

I never saw the original thread so have not seen the most of what caused all this fuss. I have to admit though that the quote from Fredo about "moving on" would have upset me too. It was definitley insensitive.

I feel more qualified than a lot of people to speak on this subject because not only am I born an bred Scouser and a season ticket holder for the last 21 years (I have been going the game regularly since I was 5 and am 31 now) but I also lost my 19 year old cousin who used to stand next to me and my dad on the Kop at the disaster.

My opinion is that the only personal boycott should be against *** *** itself. If you started extending the boycott to everything Murdoch related where would it stop? It's the paper and that **** Mackenzie who I have a problem with.

I have no problem if the BBC transfer gossip is cut and pasted onto a forum and it contains a rumour from the despicable rag. Buying it though, is another matter entirely. I think that maybe a solution to the upset caused would be to delete the names of the source the rumour came from, therefore giving no mention of the rag on the site (do not shoot me down for this opinion but it is just that I am happy just to boycott the rag and not mention it's name).

*** ***'s comments not only tried to disgrace Liverpool fans but were also a slight on the name of every Scouser. It highlighted every stereotype ever made in relation to the City of Liverpool and also took those stereotypes onto a more dispicable level. I feel for that reason it hurts the people of Liverpool that little bit more than it does those who are based outside of it.

Based on my belief of the above, people from outside the country are never going to understand the depth of hatred due to the paper. However, if they have been fans for a long time they should know enough not to make comments on a subject that is so fragile.

I don't know Fredo (as you can telll by my post count I have not made an effort on this site until recently) but do feel that, due to the information and reaction from people who do know him (ScouserTommy for example), he should have known better. But this is the internet, people sometimes do not think before they post and some people react aggressively to things written that they don't like (the apparent vitriol that followed Fredo's ill chosen words) and some people always go on the defensive even if they are wrong (Fredo's reaction to them).

In short such a sensitive subject is going to cause all sorts of reactions. It all depends on the persons personality which causes them to react the way they do.

Did Fredo apologise for saying something which was insensitive? If so then let's put it down as a lesson learned. If not then let him apologise and move on.

If anything, this thread may have helped educate some newer Liverpool fans on the subject and hopefully stop them from making the same mistake in future.

All the above is based on my opinion only and obviously I probably do not reflect the thoughts of everyone who lost family and where also there. I just thought I would offer a different view point to this discussion in the same way that someone like RS4 does so.

A long read but I hope it was worth it. As many of my friends will tell you, it is a subject I will often avoid speaking about so this is a rare post indeed!

[tomasjj]

It is very hard to be rational when dealing with strongly emotive issues.

[Red_hot]

I have just read this thread for the first time and thought I would put my two penny's worth in.

I never saw the original thread so have not seen the most of what caused all this fuss. I have to admit though that the quote from Fredo about "moving on" would have upset me too. It was definitley insensitive.

I feel more qualified than a lot of people to speak on this subject because not only am I born an bred Scouser and a season ticket holder for the last 21 years (I have been going the game regularly since I was 5 and am 31 now) but I also lost my 19 year old cousin who used to stand next to me and my dad on the Kop at the disaster.

My opinion is that the only personal boycott should be against *** *** itself. If you started extending the boycott to everything Murdoch related where would it stop? It's the paper and that **** Mackenzie who I have a problem with.

I have no problem if the BBC transfer gossip is cut and pasted onto a forum and it contains a rumour from the despicable rag. Buying it though, is another matter entirely. I think that maybe a solution to the upset caused would be to delete the names of the source the rumour came from, therefore giving no mention of the rag on the site (do not shoot me down for this opinion but it is just that I am happy just to boycott the rag and not mention it's name).

*** ***'s comments not only tried to disgrace Liverpool fans but were also a slight on the name of every Scouser. It highlighted every stereotype ever made in relation to the City of Liverpool and also took those stereotypes onto a more dispicable level. I feel for that reason it hurts the people of Liverpool that little bit more than it does those who are based outside of it.

Based on my belief of the above, people from outside the country are never going to understand the depth of hatred due to the paper. However, if they have been fans for a long time they should know enough not to make comments on a subject that is so fragile.

I don't know Fredo (as you can telll by my post count I have not made an effort on this site until recently) but do feel that, due to the information and reaction from people who do know him (ScouserTommy for example), he should have known better. But this is the internet, people sometimes do not think before they post and some people react aggressively to things written that they don't like (the apparent vitriol that followed Fredo's ill chosen words) and some people always go on the defensive even if they are wrong (Fredo's reaction to them).

In short such a sensitive subject is going to cause all sorts of reactions. It all depends on the persons personality which causes them to react the way they do.

Did Fredo apologise for saying something which was insensitive? If so then let's put it down as a lesson learned. If not then let him apologise and move on.

If anything, this thread may have helped educate some newer Liverpool fans on the subject and hopefully stop them from making the same mistake in future.

All the above is based on my opinion only and obviously I probably do not reflect the thoughts of everyone who lost family and where also there. I just thought I would offer a different view point to this discussion in the same way that someone like RS4 does so.

A long read but I hope it was worth it. As many of my friends will tell you, it is a subject I will often avoid speaking about so this is a rare post indeed!

Good post mate.

[disco]

Looks like I missed a lot of fun!

Fredo, while I think think it's a noble sentiment to be able to forgive and move on, it's a complete non-discussion regarding the paper. IF the paper apologised and the families of people who died that day 'lifted' the ban, then perhaps you'd have a point. But in the meantime I think it's disrespectful to not support the ban and in particular realise that even quoting the rag can offend people.

For the record, I think it's harsh to attack people who have indirectly quoted the rag (e.g. by copying and pasting from the BBC, or even (as happened recently) quoting a journo's article that was first published there), but it's not worth the effort to take a stand on that - I just shut the **** up and shake my head in bewilderment when now and again 10 page threads have started on a rumour that originated there.

[Helios Creed]

I'm not sure if I understand you fully on that.

In my opinion, racism is a totally different thing. I've also seen people comparing McKenzie to Hitler or something of the sort. Whilst the man should be despised all his life, until he fully apologizes, it's totally ridiculous having that comparison.

Racism shouldn't be accepted at all. If people believe in that, then they should start their own forum and attract people having the same opinions elsewhere. It simply is against every principle we base our lives on.

Racism and Hillsborough are both serious subjects that affect some people more than others and therefore some people feel more strongly about than others. Hillsborough is quite rightly treated with sensitivity and respect but discussions on racism are ridiculed and usually degenerate into a mass of offensive jokes, inane what-ifs and any serious questions being completely ignored.

It would be nice to see other subjects that people are passionate about and cause pain treated with the same respect by people who don't understand as they are not affected, in the same way that OOTers and people abroad understand that Hillsborough is a more sensitive subject for people from Liverpool. It's not going to happen I know.

[Guest]

People will behave rationally mate when others do, but yesterday your original posts didnt come across as that.

Correct, you shouldnt get a mouthful and people can act sensibly on the subject but to get that you need do the same. You came across as dismissive and that got peoples backs up. Like I said, there is fault on both sides and for this to not carry on it'd be easier to just admit your faults and move on rather than point blame else were.

Well, I've admitted my faults mate. I am man enough to be the first to come forward when I've cocked up on something.

I don't think it's worthwhile talking about the subject anymore though. People bigger than me failed before, so I won't win.

Still, I have seen many posters, who've never dared to enter any debate whatsoever before and who were only content with lurking, coming at me like a shot.

[disco]

Helios - the hypocracy you refer to is a real shame, but unfortunately you can't change people.

[The Glove]

Still, I have seen many posters, who've never dared to enter any debate whatsoever before and who were only content with lurking, coming at me like a shot.

Do you understand why?

[poorscousertommy]

Do you understand why?

Words.Right.Out.Of.Mouth

[Fagan]

You miss the point mate. I expect people to behave in a 'rational' way, that's all. I don't expect people to change their feelings on that, not at all, but I expect the subject to be debated sensibly, if not at all. Have I made myself clear on that ? Or is it still 'badly worded' ?

It can be difficult for some of us to think in a rational way on this subject!

[Kaip]

You miss the point mate. I expect people to behave in a 'rational' way, that's all. I don't expect people to change their feelings on that, not at all, but I expect the subject to be debated sensibly, if not at all. Have I made myself clear on that ? Or is it still 'badly worded' ?

You expect people to behave in a ' rational ' way with comments like this.....



I fully agree with the sentiments as regards to the sun, but IMO we should move on now. Some younger LFC fans wouldn't be able to know instantly what happened at that time.

I repeat, we should move on.




Does that statment you made Fredo come across as ' rational '

[Guest]

Racism and Hillsborough are both serious subjects that affect some people more than others and therefore some people feel more strongly about than others. Hillsborough is quite rightly treated with sensitivity and respect but discussions on racism are ridiculed and usually degenerate into a mass of offensive jokes, inane what-ifs and any serious questions being completely ignored.

I agree that the way that scousers were portrayed in that rag in the aftermath of that fateful day, is close, if not a form of racism, then yes both issues can be related on that matter alone.

In reply to Disco. I haven't condoned what this rag printed at all mate. I made a cock up in trying to diffuse the issue as something that was in the past and that we should move forward. I was wrong, but I'll still keep my slightly differing opinions close to my chest as from now.

[Kaip]

I have just read this thread for the first time and thought I would put my two penny's worth in.

I never saw the original thread so have not seen the most of what caused all this fuss. I have to admit though that the quote from Fredo about "moving on" would have upset me too. It was definitley insensitive.

I feel more qualified than a lot of people to speak on this subject because not only am I born an bred Scouser and a season ticket holder for the last 21 years (I have been going the game regularly since I was 5 and am 31 now) but I also lost my 19 year old cousin who used to stand next to me and my dad on the Kop at the disaster.

My opinion is that the only personal boycott should be against *** *** itself. If you started extending the boycott to everything Murdoch related where would it stop? It's the paper and that **** Mackenzie who I have a problem with.

I have no problem if the BBC transfer gossip is cut and pasted onto a forum and it contains a rumour from the despicable rag. Buying it though, is another matter entirely. I think that maybe a solution to the upset caused would be to delete the names of the source the rumour came from, therefore giving no mention of the rag on the site (do not shoot me down for this opinion but it is just that I am happy just to boycott the rag and not mention it's name).

*** ***'s comments not only tried to disgrace Liverpool fans but were also a slight on the name of every Scouser. It highlighted every stereotype ever made in relation to the City of Liverpool and also took those stereotypes onto a more dispicable level. I feel for that reason it hurts the people of Liverpool that little bit more than it does those who are based outside of it.

Based on my belief of the above, people from outside the country are never going to understand the depth of hatred due to the paper. However, if they have been fans for a long time they should know enough not to make comments on a subject that is so fragile.

I don't know Fredo (as you can telll by my post count I have not made an effort on this site until recently) but do feel that, due to the information and reaction from people who do know him (ScouserTommy for example), he should have known better. But this is the internet, people sometimes do not think before they post and some people react aggressively to things written that they don't like (the apparent vitriol that followed Fredo's ill chosen words) and some people always go on the defensive even if they are wrong (Fredo's reaction to them).

In short such a sensitive subject is going to cause all sorts of reactions. It all depends on the persons personality which causes them to react the way they do.

Did Fredo apologise for saying something which was insensitive? If so then let's put it down as a lesson learned. If not then let him apologise and move on.

If anything, this thread may have helped educate some newer Liverpool fans on the subject and hopefully stop them from making the same mistake in future.

All the above is based on my opinion only and obviously I probably do not reflect the thoughts of everyone who lost family and where also there. I just thought I would offer a different view point to this discussion in the same way that someone like RS4 does so.

A long read but I hope it was worth it. As many of my friends will tell you, it is a subject I will often avoid speaking about so this is a rare post indeed!

Cracking post mate