Should Liverpool have an affinity to Rangers or Celtic?

[The Glove]

My old fella it a catlik, he supports Liverpool and so do all the catliks in my family. Im a Prod and I support Liverpool and so do all the Prods in my family. Me and the old boy have no affinity with either the old firm. Dundee utd for me and St Mirren for the old boy.

[Redspin]

Your posts say Liverpool fans are protestant,ermm no Catholic.

I was saying that whilst it is a matter of absolute fact that Liverpool is traditionally the Protestant club in the city, many Catholics are Liverpool supporters, which does nothing to contradict or undermine the club's traditional association in this area.

Similarly, whilst Celtic are traditionally the Catholic club in Glasgow I personally at the moment know a number of protestant fans of the club and have known quite a number in the past - which does not alter the fact that Celtic is traditionally the Catholic club

[justyafivetimes]

slightly off topic...a guy in work went to a match in goodison a couple of years back and - whoever they were playing - he was shocked at loads of racist chants from the everton fans. older colleagues nodded sagely and said everton has a history of racism. is this true?

yeah

[Red_hot]

it has always been the case but doesn't make it right.

imagine the fuss if schools had a policy of white only teachers, or no gay teachers or if single sex schools only allowed teachers of that sex. The truth is religious descrimination is the only bias that society still deems acceptable.

Well its more to do with the fact that catholic schools want teachers who will be fully commited to teaching the kids the way of the Catholic faith and in reality a teacher from another religion isn't going to be are they?

[Tom]

Liverpool and Rangers are traditionally Protestant clubs,the other two catholic.
When I was a kid in the 40s/50s there was not a choice the school and church you were born into decided your football team,it was the same in Glasgow,therefore our natural affinity is with Rangers.

This is not true. Liverpool and Everton were never split along sectarian lines. I get sick of this catholic/prod split being trotted out about the two clubs, it's utter nonsense.

[Tom]

Everton were founded as St. Domingo F.C. in 1878 in order that people from the parish of St. Domingo Methodist Church could play a sport outside of the summer months (during which time cricket was played). A year later the club were renamed Everton F.C. after the surrounding area, as people outside the parish wished to participate.I: The Early Days (1878-88).

Both Everton and Liverpool owe their existence to reformist Methodists during the late 19th century.

Best article on this from Toffeeweb:

ARE EVERTONIANS CATHOLIC OR PROTESTANT?
A balanced view by Michael Kenrick

For many of us, supporting Everton becomes a religion expressed through adulation, dedication, and undying allegiance. In the good old days (before Sky TV), regular attendance at the holy ground on the Sabbath was a sacrament that brought with it the gamut of religious experience, from depression and despair to sheer ecstasy. And with Everton some of these aspects remain unchanged despite the ructions of recent years.

Human nature will cause some to blur the distinction between football, the one true religion, and other religions that may be more widely recognized as such. Thus, it is no surprise that many have wondered over the years whether Everton drew its support more from the Catholic or Protestant side of the City of Liverpool. And once you ask this question, it follows that the other lot must therefore support Liverpool FC... Wrong!

Everton Football Club started life as St Domingo's Boys Club: cricket in the summer, and football in the winter. Despite the distinctly Latin flavour of the name, St Domingo's was a Methodist church in the Everton district of Liverpool. The football club was what might now be termed an outreach programme for the strapping youths of that parish. In this respect, Everton shared an initial religious connection with many of the other new clubs that were to form the Football League back in 1892.

Sam Johnstone of the Football Research Unit at Liverpool University says those speculating on the origins of the Liverpool-Everton, Protestant-Catholic thing are talking nonsense. "Both clubs were founded by the same people (essentially the wealthy, protestant middle classes of 19th-century Liverpool) from the same church (St Domingo's, a protestant church)," he says.

"The story of Liverpool's formation is familiar to all. Everton were formed in 1878, team falls out with John Houlding (the guy who owns Anfield), Houlding forms Liverpool FC in 1892, the rest we know about. What is more interesting is the involvement of the Masons. The guys who formed LFC and EFC were wealthy, middle class, protestant, businessmen and, importantly, pillars of the political and religious establishment (Houlding went on to become Lord Mayor of Liverpool). Freemasonry attracted these very people (for many reasons) and it is known that Houlding and his friend W Barclay were in the Lodge.

"And, of course, this was repeated nationwide. For those teams that didn't come specifically from the Catholic church (Celtic), it was likely that the factory and mill owners were involved in charitable organisations, religion and politics (all masonic activities). It is no coincidence that the meeting that led to the formation of the FA took place in a pub called the Freemason's Tavern. Or am I just a conspiracy theorist?"

Whatever religious connection there might have been originally, it seems to have faded fast as the popular appeal of football grew and the name changed within a year to Everton Football Club. None of the early characters involved in establishing the club appeared to have expressed any religious position regarding the club, apart from a mild objection that early meetings were held in the public rooms of Houlding's Queens Head Hotel – within smelling distance of the evil alcohol.

There appears to be little real evidence to suggest any strong relationship between support of Everton and adherence to either the Catholic or Protestant faiths. Parental family ties appear to have been much stronger, with many current Evertonians citing fathers or grandfathers (of either religion) who were true blue, through and through.

On an individual basis, it must have been comforting for some to draw a parallel between allegiance to the club, and faith in God. But on a larger perspective, it seems that many families united by their religious origins include both true blues and other misguided souls who are seduced by the red devils from hell, aka Liverpool FC.

Peter Farrell The possibility of a religious connection may be relatively recent and purely accidental. Through the 1950's, the Everton team took on a distinctly Irish flavour, with the likes of Peter Farrell and Tommy Eglington becoming big crowd favourites. This brought about a significant influx of Irish fans, and may have been responsible for suggesting a Catholic flavour. Prior to this, there may have been a majority of Orangemen with a history of family support for the club from the early part of the century. Either way, it probably matters very little today, to all except a few zealots and fundamentalists.

Other subtle clues help only to cloud the issue, such as an indefinable link (in the minds of some supporters) between Everton and Glasgow Celtic, rather than Glasgow Rangers — the Bears being more readily tied with Liverpool FC.

The religious division between the two Glasgow rivals is a very real factor that bears no comparison on Merseyside, where the two clubs grew from the same root. However, this last factor is immortalized in the words of one Goodison anthem that had its origin in the 1960's, when the historic internecine rivalry between Shankly's Liverpool and Catterick's Everton reached new heights:


Oh we hate Bill Shankly, and we hate St John
But most of all, we hate Big Ron
And we'll hang the kopites one by one
On the banks of the Royal Blue Mersey

So to hell with Liverpool and Rangers too
We'll drown them all in the Mersey
And we'll fight, fight, fight with all our might
For the lads in the Royal Blue Jerseys.

Conspiracy theorists will suggest that his thread underlies the incomprehensible treatment (directed at Glasgow Rangers) handed down to Everton's Nineties cult-hero, Duncan Ferguson, by a Scottish hierarchy steeped in religious bigotry that has no place in football. However, as far as Everton FC are concerned, the links with the two Glasgow clubs seem relatively evenly balanced.

The record books show that transfers of players from both the Glasgow clubs have occurred consistently since the earliest years of EFC. And recent ties, such as the loans of Ian Durrant and Duncan Ferguson from Rangers in 1994, and Dave Watson's Testimonial against Rangers in 1997-98 – contrasted with Neville Southall's testimonial opponents Celtic a couple of years earlier – must demonstrate that no such preferential or religious connection exits in practice. The mix continued with ex-Rangers manager, Walter Smith, bringing in ex-Celtic midfielder John Collins. Richard Gough and Paul Gascoigne both played for Rangers; David Moyes and Alan Stubbs both played for Celtic.

In this day and age, when religion lies at the heart of so much pain and suffering, it would pay us to distance ourselves from this divisive issue. Of course, that will not stop the more boisterous young supporters looking for any issue to polarise on. But to deny its existence would be to ignore or implicitly rewrite an aspect of the unique history and culture that surrounds and sustains supporters of Everton Football Club.

[Revo]

Both Everton and Liverpool owe their existence to reformist Methodists during the late 19th century.

Best article on this from Toffeeweb:

brilliant article

[desertscouser]

Well its more to do with the fact that catholic schools want teachers who will be fully commited to teaching the kids the way of the Catholic faith and in reality a teacher from another religion isn't going to be are they?

Thing is though, why would a maths teacher in a Catholic school ever discuss religion with his students? Surely, algebra etc would be the only thing on the agenda, which could be taught just as well by a protestant maths teacher?

[Red_hot]

Thing is though, why would a maths teacher in a Catholic school ever discuss religion with his students? Surely, algebra etc would be the only thing on the agenda, which could be taught just as well by a protestant maths teacher?

"Selecting Teachers For Catholic Schools

The preservation and development of the quality and distinctive nature of Catholic schools depends on the faith, practice and commitment of the teachers in the schools, working with their Governing Bodies.

To find Catholic teachers who combine personal conviction and practice of the faith with the required professional qualifications and experience, especially in specialist subjects, is always a high priority.

The recognition of the role that Catholic teachers play stands alongside the value we place on teachers of other Christian Churches, other Faiths and other teachers who contribute to and support the Catholic ethos in our schools. We recognise the great contribution they make helping to ensure that our pupils are equipped to communicate with and participate in the contemporary society..


Selecting Leaders For Catholic Schools

The posts of Headteacher, Deputy Headteacher and Head or Coordinator of Religious Education are to be filled by baptised and practising Catholics.

Other Leadership posts that affect directly the Catholic Mission of the school should, wherever possible, be staffed by skilled practitioners who are committed Catholics.

All teachers must respect and support the aims and objectives of a Catholic school".

[Sir Bob]

Well its more to do with the fact that catholic schools want teachers who will be fully commited to teaching the kids the way of the Catholic faith and in reality a teacher from another religion isn't going to be are they?

Catholic schools do i'm sure want Catholics teachers but thats not the point really. All jobs should be open to all people irrespective of race, sex, creed, sexual orientation or religious beliefs.

i'm not actually a teacher, i work on the financial side of education and have no teaching contact with pupils. i couldn't influence pupils towards any particular way of thinking even if i wanted to, yet catholic schools on the whole only employ catholic bursars/business managers.

[The Glove]

Doesnt really answer the question but I think this is a topic for another thread so just leave all that crap there for now.



SB got in just before me there.

[Red_hot]

Catholic schools do i'm sure want Catholics teachers but thats not the point really. All jobs should be open to all people irrespective of race, sex, creed, sexual orientation or religious beliefs.

i'm not actually a teacher, i work on the financial side of education and have no teaching contact with pupils. i couldn't influence pupils towards any particular way of thinking even if i wanted to, yet catholic schools on the whole only employ catholic bursars/business managers.

Whatever they are doing it's working because Catholic schools do better overall.

[andyinswinton]

I don't want to be asssociated with either Celtic or Rangers.

Both clubs are happy to throw their hats into the ring with any team south of the boarder (particulary Celtic who have had several high profile friendlies against the scum).

If they are happy to link up with them then they shouldn't with us.

I don't think it should have anything to do with religion now. I know it has done for many generations but times have most definitely changed. Its important to remember our history, we were a protestant club but its in the past and we should move on. The same for every club. Our allegancies should be for us, and us alone.

[Tom]

Bollocks were we a protestant club. Not in the past, nor now, nor in the future. Neither Everton or Liverpool have a sectarian foundation. And thank **** for that.

[Sir Bob]

Whatever they are doing it's working because Catholic schools do better overall.

i'm not sufficiently well informed to know if thats the case or not.

My point is that the best person for any particular job should get that job. i recently went for a job interview for the post of business manager/bursar in a large catholic school in liverpool. i was told off the record by a governor at the school that I didn't get the position as i'm not catholic. Its particulary ironic as my Dads a catholic and my mums protestant. i was brought up as a proddy but could just as easily have been brought up a catholic. If i had, i would have got the job but i wasn't so i didn't. now surely that can't be right.