Should Liverpool have an affinity to Rangers or Celtic?

[Red_hot]

Could you not tell?

Sing the words:

Oh... I am a Liverpudlian, I come from the Spion Kop
I like to sing, I like to shout, I go there quite a lot (every week)
We support the team that play in Red, a team that we all know
A team that we call Liverpool and to glory we will go
We've won the League, we've won the Cup, we've been to Europe too
We played the Toffees for a laugh and we left them feeling blue - Five Nil!

Then listen to 'The Sash'...

It is old but it is beautiful, and its colours they are fine
It was worn at Derry, Aughrim, Enniskillen and the Boyne.
My father wore it as a youth in bygone days of yore,
And on the Twelfth I love to wear the sash my father wore.

I don't know any Orange Marching songs funnily enough!!!!!

[rushscored4]

so a 2nd rate 80s pop star points out that marching songs get sung at anfield and suddenly we're a "protestant club". Do me a favour. We also sing that fields of anfield road to the tune of that famous republican song 'Fields of Athenry' doesn't make us IRA supporters or a catholic club.

How about this propaganda:

John Houlding was a self-made businessman in the tail end of the 19th century, owning a brewery that left him in a comfortable financial state for the rest of his life. He was elected to the Liverpool City Council as a Conservative representing the Everton ward, before being appointed Mayor in 1897. His major contribution, however, was to found Liverpool F.C. in 1892, although this story starts off with their fierce rivals Everton. Houlding was also a member of the Orange Order along with several other early Liverpool F.C. directors.

And here's some more made-up bollocks:

Liverpool's first manager was the strongly religious Irishman John McKenna. After joining many Irish immigrants on Merseyside during Queen Victoria's reign over the country, McKenna took up many jobs. His first job in the city was as a 19 year old grocers boy, and he also spent a time working as a vaccinations officer in the city. His major work came in charity, and he was involved in both the West Derby Union and the Orange Order among many other foundations. His work for the Union revolved around helping Liverpool's poor and destitute, and another of his major passions was his work for the church. He first met John Houlding through his work for the charitable organisation the Orange Order.

[Tom]

Sorry I find this whole attempt at devising revisionist history to drive a sectarian wedge between the clubs really offensive. We don't need religion in our football.

****ing flakey history too given the foundations of each club.

[Tom]

How about this propaganda:

John Houlding was a self-made businessman in the tail end of the 19th century, owning a brewery that left him in a comfortable financial state for the rest of his life. He was elected to the Liverpool City Council as a Conservative representing the Everton ward, before being appointed Mayor in 1897. His major contribution, however, was to found Liverpool F.C. in 1892, although this story starts off with their fierce rivals Everton. Houlding was also a member of the Orange Order along with several other early Liverpool F.C. directors.

And here's some more made-up bollocks:

Liverpool's first manager was the strongly religious Irishman John McKenna. After joining many Irish immigrants on Merseyside during Queen Victoria's reign over the country, McKenna took up many jobs. His first job in the city was as a 19 year old grocers boy, and he also spent a time working as a vaccinations officer in the city. His major work came in charity, and he was involved in both the West Derby Union and the Orange Order among many other foundations. His work for the Union revolved around helping Liverpool's poor and destitute, and another of his major passions was his work for the church. He first met John Houlding through his work for the charitable organisation the Orange Order.

So what his background has got nothing to do with the club. Where does it say in your cut and paste history that the club was founded as a protestant club. The same people were involved in the founding of Everton, everton fans sing marching songs. Everton haven't got a sectarian foundation either.

[Red_hot]

Sorry I find this whole attempt at devising revisionist history to drive a sectarian wedge between the clubs really offensive. We don't need religion in our football.

Calm down dear. It's only a discussion.

[Tom]

"The story of Liverpool's formation is familiar to all. Everton were formed in 1878, team falls out with John Houlding (the guy who owns Anfield), Houlding forms Liverpool FC in 1892, the rest we know about. What is more interesting is the involvement of the Masons. The guys who formed LFC and EFC were wealthy, middle class, protestant, businessmen and, importantly, pillars of the political and religious establishment (Houlding went on to become Lord Mayor of Liverpool). Freemasonry attracted these very people (for many reasons) and it is known that Houlding and his friend W Barclay were in the Lodge.

"And, of course, this was repeated nationwide. For those teams that didn't come specifically from the Catholic church (Celtic), it was likely that the factory and mill owners were involved in charitable organisations, religion and politics (all masonic activities)."

[Tom]

My final word on this. Celtic 'borrowed' YNWA from a protestant club?

[rushscored4]

Sorry I find this whole attempt at devising revisionist history to drive a sectarian wedge between the clubs really offensive. We don't need religion in our football.

****ing flakey history too given the foundations of each club.

So what his background has got nothing to do with the club. Where does it say in your cut and paste history that the club was founded as a protestant club. The same people were involved in the founding of Everton, everton fans sing marching songs. Everton haven't got a sectarian foundation either.

Nice line although 'copy and paste' would have been more accurate. But we shouldn't let the facts get in the way of a good intellectual argument, eh?

[Tom]

You haven't presented any facts. Present some. Please.

[The Glove]

What 'Facts' do you want?

[Tom]

If you're going to make claims about sectarian foundations of everton or liverpool lets see the history. There isn't any. Saying that certain songs use certain tunes means nothing. I'm still to see any history that catagorically states that the clubs were founded along sectarian lines.

Some facts to mull over while somebody does this:

- Liverpool fans sing orange marching songs (the sash)
- Liverpool fans also sing republican songs (fields of....)
- Everton fans use orange marching songs (Johnny Todd)
-Both clubs founded by the same people who happen to be members of the orange lodge.
-Goodison park includes a protestant church within it (strange for a supposedly catholic club dontcha think?)

There is no foundation to support an argument that liverpool is protestant, everton catholic.

[Kaip]

................

[rushscored4]

You haven't presented any facts. Present some. Please.

Tom, as I said in my original reply in this thread, I really don't give a flying **** about religion. Half my family is protestant and the other half is catholic. So ****ing what? I only care about the football club not it's origins and the fact that we were formed by staunch loyalists is about as relevant to me as not having a Northern Irish international for over 70 years. Both are proven facts but neither mean a thing.

However, as Red_Hot said, you get so emotive about these things and use hysterical phrases like "sectarian agendas" which is hard to ignore...

[The Glove]

Idve thought it was more the fan base than the club that makes one club one thing and one club another.

[Tom]

Tom, as I said in my original reply in this thread, I really don't give a flying **** about religion. Half my family is protestant and the other half is catholic. So ****ing what? I only care about the football club not it's origins and the fact that we were formed by staunch loyalists is about as relevant to me as not having a Northern Irish international for over 70 years. Both are proven facts but neither mean a thing.

However, as Red_Hot said, you get so emotive about these things and use hysterical phrases like "sectarian agendas" which is hard to ignore...

I never said you had an agenda.

But people who make out a divide along sectarian lines when there isn't one - you have to ask why they want to believe this? Everything you said about liverpools founders could be applied to Evertons. They were the same people. Lets leave it at that.