I like the way..

[dww]

but this is how Wenger has done so well by buying big black powerhouses who will run all day and have some skill as well

Yes but everyone else seems to have gone for athletecism over skill. He has nurtured players so that they combine both which is a real skill IMO.

[dww]

Not for me mate, not on either count.

As much as I love Rafa and as great as I personally believe he is, he won’t be universally recognised as an LFC great until he wins the league. Same applies to Wenger and the Champions League IMO.

I like Wenger a damn sight more than Ferguson, but Purple Nose has won it all with an attacking brand of football just as attractive as Wenger’s.

I really haven't found any of Uniteds teams all that attractive apart from the current one last season to be honest.

I guess it is just different ideas of what being great means but I think that to take the team Rafa started with to the CL final and win was an enormous achievement.

[Dhav]

I think Wenger is a great manager but the original post fails to take into account the fact that the purchases mentioned come from a time when Wenger had a squad full of his own choices of players and also a much superior team to the one Rafa inherited. Add to that the fact that until this summer the two clubs spending has been pretty evenly matched then the argument looses a lot of weight.

There does appear to be a new bread of insufferably ******ish Arsenal supporters emerging. I still prefer them in general to Manc or Chelsea supporters though.

Oh. And I think Pennant is a very good player who adds width to our team - however his placeis always in danger when his crosses don't produce goals as he doesn't score any. He is a bit of a form dip at the minute but I think he will work his way out of it.

Not that new mate, I've known them for 20 years. Unfortuantely they are becoming more common and increasing in number.

[Pacman]

Selling Cisse was the right thing to do because he wasn't good enough.

Pennant should also be sold if he don't start to deliver. We can't afford to have an attacking player that delivers nothing.

Our wing play isn't good enough. That is why we now have problems to break down a packed defense. Our opponent can concentrate to take out our threat in the middle because they know that we don't have creative enough wingers.

If we get better wing play then it will also mean that we will get more space to work with in the middle, the defense can't play as compact as they do now against us because they would have to worry about our wingers too.

Rafa seems to like him so that's good enough for me

[Frank Leroux]

I think it's a real pity we can't just acknowledge the worth of opponents' players/managers rather than going into anal detail of points gained over the years or he bought this whereas we bought that.

Of course it was inappropriate to go comparing Wenger and Benitez at the start of the thread but many of the responses just smack of the old 'them and us' attitude rather than a reasonable evaluation of Wenger's merits.

It's ridiculous to say that only by winning the major European cup(s) can a manger be deemed world class/great/whatever - plenty of average managers have won the European Cup and many great managers have failed. Surely a CL victory by Arsenal this season should not greatly affect your current view of him? One way or t'other.

Wenger's a great manager with maybe some failings. Just like Ferguson. Just like Mourinho. Just like Benitez.

Frank.

[Elvis]

Some of the posts on here are not very objective, to put it mildly. I mean, to hear Liverpool fans complain about other teams loving themselves and being smug - we constantly tell everyone who will listen that we are the best fans in the world, with the best songs and sense of humour, the best traditions, the best history, best track-record, best stadium, best managers and best midfield.....and we wonder why not everybody like us? We haven't EVER one the Premier League. Let's show some humility, back the team, back the manager - but let's not talk like we have some divine right to finish at the top of the table. As far as I'm concenred it could go either - Rafa brings home no. 19 and he's a God, or he fails to do so (just as likely), gets the axe and everybody loves him anyway cos he won us Big Ears. Perhaps Wenger and Fergie are just better equipped to win in English football? It's a possibility guys.

[carheex]

Nobody has scored from his so called fantastic crosses the last few months.

As you well know, stats can show or hide pretty much anything depending on how you use them. Who's to say that a lot of Pennant's good work hasn't created space for someone else to score/make an assist? maybe it's not just about putting in crosses - he takes players on and causes a bit of a panic in the defence which can lead to more space for our strikers. Maybe his passes go to someone else who then makes an assist? The point is, he has got better and better and doesn't deserve some of the stick he gets. That said, Cisse wasn't as bad as people make out either.

[Neil Young]

Some of the posts on here are not very objective, to put it mildly. I mean, to hear Liverpool fans complain about other teams loving themselves and being smug - we constantly tell everyone who will listen that we are the best fans in the world, with the best songs and sense of humour, the best traditions, the best history, best track-record, best stadium, best managers and best midfield.....and we wonder why not everybody like us? We haven't EVER one the Premier League. Let's show some humility, back the team, back the manager - but let's not talk like we have some divine right to finish at the top of the table. As far as I'm concenred it could go either - Rafa brings home no. 19 and he's a God, or he fails to do so (just as likely), gets the axe and everybody loves him anyway cos he won us Big Ears. Perhaps Wenger and Fergie are just better equipped to win in English football? It's a possibility guys.

As the person who first mentioned the word "smug" can I just ask, what the hell are you talking about?

[Elvis]

You don't speaka da inglish? I'm not repeating myself.

[Pacman]

As you well know, stats can show or hide pretty much anything depending on how you use them. Who's to say that a lot of Pennant's good work hasn't created space for someone else to score/make an assist? maybe it's not just about putting in crosses - he takes players on and causes a bit of a panic in the defence which can lead to more space for our strikers. Maybe his passes go to someone else who then makes an assist? The point is, he has got better and better and doesn't deserve some of the stick he gets. That said, Cisse wasn't as bad as people make out either.

You were doing so well until that last sentence.

That said I agree with everything else you have said

[Neil Young]

You don't speaka da inglish? I'm not repeating myself.

Look fella, it's really rude to accuse others of not being objective because you don't agree with them. It's also really not much use lumping together a whole load of posts into one impressionistic stream-of-consciousness splurge rather than making it clear what particular points you don't agree with.

Plenty of people have agreed Wenger is an excellent manager. It's a question of how fallible he is.

As for comments on Arsenal fans, I know plenty. Some are objectionable when talking about football in a way they weren't a few years ago. Oh, and they tend not to give credit to Benitez either.

Capito?

[Pacman]

Some of the posts on here are not very objective, to put it mildly. I mean, to hear Liverpool fans complain about other teams loving themselves and being smug - we constantly tell everyone who will listen that we are the best fans in the world, with the best songs and sense of humour, the best traditions, the best history, best track-record, best stadium, best managers and best midfield.....and we wonder why not everybody like us? We haven't EVER one the Premier League. Let's show some humility, back the team, back the manager - but let's not talk like we have some divine right to finish at the top of the table. As far as I'm concenred it could go either - Rafa brings home no. 19 and he's a God, or he fails to do so (just as likely), gets the axe and everybody loves him anyway cos he won us Big Ears. Perhaps Wenger and Fergie are just better equipped to win in English football? It's a possibility guys.

Did you know that there was football before the Premier league?

[dww]

As the person who first mentioned the word "smug" can I just ask, what the hell are you talking about?

I think he calling you a ******.

[dww]

You don't speaka da inglish? I'm not repeating myself.

Looks like I was right

[Elvis]

Oh..right. Sorry. Let's not bother trying to win it then. OK.