Financial situation, doom & gloom reports etc

[Guest]

Yes very carefully thought through at a fixed rate of interest. I also didn't lie when I applied for it and bought the house.



I was in the US early this year the downturn in the housing market was well underway and the credit crunch was being talked about by everyone. Anyone with half a brain would have factored a downturn into a future business project. Now either they are fiscally incompetant or they lied to us and Moores about how they were going to fiance the club.

They're now scrabbling about trying to find the finance for the original loans to buy the club as it has to be repaid in just over a months time. Hardly smacks of economic competance




Ok lets look at the facts.

- We're told that the financing of the club will not be paid by loading debt on the club.

Now we find out that £270 million acquisition debt is to be put on to the club's books. Interest payments of 30 million a year.

This is splitting the board and Moores is having Kittens.

-On public television wads of cash are flashed and the manager is promised snoogy doogy if he wants him.

We spend slightly more than we do normally and less than sunderland. We now find out that the Torres deal is going to be paid for by this debt. So in effect the yanks have barely backed the club at all. We're buying him by going into debt. We're paying for him. Another broken promise or lie if you want to put it that way.

Rafa is publically slapped down, told to button it and told he wont have any money for transfers unless we sell. Another broken promise.

- The fiasco of the stadium
Again, any competant financier would have known the trajectory for the price of steel is on an upward curve because of China. This should have been built into any financial model of budget overspend. Why wasn't it?

Nothing they have done fills me with confidence. They operate on the other side of the world, they don't understand football culture and they are not backing our manager in the way they should.

Not to mention the stuff about Rafa being sacked at the end of the season, the Mascher situation and the fact that they have already talked to other managers. You may you consider this hearsay but this is from people I've known a long time who love the club and have a bloody good idea of what is happening inside it.

Now in the face of all this, to accuse me of being melodramatic does me a disservice mate.

Pretty much what I think Tom, but put in a much more eloquent manner than I did.

[Chris]

http://football.guardian.co.uk/breakingnews/feedstory/0,,-7171048,00.html

LONDON, Dec 21 (Reuters) - British soccer club Liverpool FC is expected to complete a debt refinancing before February after previous plans to complete in November were delayed by turmoil in the credit markets, sources close to the situation told Reuters.
The deal to refinance about 300 million pounds ($594.9 million) of debt, borrowed by U.S. billionaires Tom Hicks and George Gillett to acquire the club last year, is expected before a bridge facility with Royal Bank of Scotland expires in February.
"It will have to be before February," one of the sources said on Friday.
Wachovia Corp, the fourth-largest U.S. bank, is arranging the refinancing.
Hicks told Reuters on Oct. 25 that refinancing would be complete within 30 days. But credit markets slowed as banks' exposure to troubled U.S. sub-prime mortgages made them more risk-averse and expensive to borrow from.
Hicks, owner of the Texas Rangers baseball team, could not be reached for comment. Liverpool FC declined comment.
The refinancing deal will include an amount to start work on a new stadium, the sources said. This could be around 40 million pounds, one of the sources said.
Further financing for the new venue, expected to cost about 400 million pounds and to be ready by 2011, will be raised through a different deal, the source said

[Guest]

http://football.guardian.co.uk/break...171048,00.html

LONDON, Dec 21 (Reuters) - British soccer club Liverpool FC is expected to complete a debt refinancing before February after previous plans to complete in November were delayed by turmoil in the credit markets, sources close to the situation told Reuters.
The deal to refinance about 300 million pounds ($594.9 million) of debt, borrowed by U.S. billionaires Tom Hicks and George Gillett to acquire the club last year, is expected before a bridge facility with Royal Bank of Scotland expires in February.
"It will have to be before February," one of the sources said on Friday.
Wachovia Corp, the fourth-largest U.S. bank, is arranging the refinancing.
Hicks told Reuters on Oct. 25 that refinancing would be complete within 30 days. But credit markets slowed as banks' exposure to troubled U.S. sub-prime mortgages made them more risk-averse and expensive to borrow from.
Hicks, owner of the Texas Rangers baseball team, could not be reached for comment. Liverpool FC declined comment.
The refinancing deal will include an amount to start work on a new stadium, the sources said. This could be around 40 million pounds, one of the sources said.
Further financing for the new venue, expected to cost about 400 million pounds and to be ready by 2011, will be raised through a different deal, the source said

So, a rough guess would be 240m for buying the club and a further 60m (I think the reporter got that figure of 40m wrong) to start work on the stadium ?

mmm ... And still, a further 340m needs to be financed to build the stadium ...

At least it's an improvement on Moores, who couldn't raise that much but they still talked a lot of bull**** when they arrived.

[CAD]

Yes very carefully thought through at a fixed rate of interest. I also didn't lie when I applied for it and bought the house.



I was in the US early this year the downturn in the housing market was well underway and the credit crunch was being talked about by everyone. Anyone with half a brain would have factored a downturn into a future business project. Now either they are fiscally incompetant or they lied to us and Moores about how they were going to fiance the club.

They're now scrabbling about trying to find the finance for the original loans to buy the club as it has to be repaid in just over a months time. Hardly smacks of economic competance




Ok lets look at the facts.

- We're told that the financing of the club will not be paid by loading debt on the club.

Now we find out that £270 million acquisition debt is to be put on to the club's books. Interest payments of 30 million a year.

This is splitting the board and Moores is having Kittens.

-On public television wads of cash are flashed and the manager is promised snoogy doogy if he wants him.

We spend slightly more than we do normally and less than sunderland. We now find out that the Torres deal is going to be paid for by this debt. So in effect the yanks have barely backed the club at all. We're buying him by going into debt. We're paying for him. Another broken promise or lie if you want to put it that way.

Rafa is publically slapped down, told to button it and told he wont have any money for transfers unless we sell. Another broken promise.

- The fiasco of the stadium
Again, any competant financier would have known the trajectory for the price of steel is on an upward curve because of China. This should have been built into any financial model of budget overspend. Why wasn't it?

Nothing they have done fills me with confidence. They operate on the other side of the world, they don't understand football culture and they are not backing our manager in the way they should.

Not to mention the stuff about Rafa being sacked at the end of the season, the Mascher situation and the fact that they have already talked to other managers. You may you consider this hearsay but this is from people I've known a long time who love the club and have a bloody good idea of what is happening inside it.

Now in the face of all this, to accuse me of being melodramatic does me a disservice mate.

What a post, son. What a post!

[Tom]

The only possible benefit I can see with the yanks is that they can raise big loans. So big deal.

There is no benefit in terms of them investing money into the club whatsoever because they're not doing it. They will benefit hugely as they will take money out of the club in terms of bonuses. What a stitch-up.

They'll also **** about with the manager. Hmm.

[Guest]

The only possible benefit I can see with the yanks is that they can raise big loans. So big deal.

There is no benefit in terms of them investing money into the club whatsoever because they're not doing it. They will benefit hugely as they will take money out of the club in terms of bonuses. What a stitch-up.

They'll also **** about with the manager. Hmm.

Unless they can dramatically improve our marketing potential and make us ? profitable in the medium term. Well, they've said they would be custodians, so let's hope so, but I'm not holding my breath.

I haven't seen much into their long term plan and how they will approach this problem and how their vision is in terms of steadily improving us.

[rage]

a part of me wishes the re-financing ****s up and these clowns are forced to sell.
we have become the mancs worst nightmare of what they thought they'd become under glazier.

[Revo]

a part of me wishes the re-financing ****s up and these clowns are forced to sell.
we have become the mancs worst nightmare of what they thought they'd become under glazier.

potentially

[Fowler_God]

Ok lets look at the facts.

- We're told that the financing of the club will not be paid by loading debt on the club.

Now we find out that £270 million acquisition debt is to be put on to the club's books. Interest payments of 30 million a year.

This is splitting the board and Moores is having Kittens.

-On public television wads of cash are flashed and the manager is promised snoogy doogy if he wants him.

We spend slightly more than we do normally and less than sunderland. We now find out that the Torres deal is going to be paid for by this debt. So in effect the yanks have barely backed the club at all. We're buying him by going into debt. We're paying for him. Another broken promise or lie if you want to put it that way.

Rafa is publically slapped down, told to button it and told he wont have any money for transfers unless we sell. Another broken promise.

- The fiasco of the stadium
Again, any competant financier would have known the trajectory for the price of steel is on an upward curve because of China. This should have been built into any financial model of budget overspend. Why wasn't it?

Nothing they have done fills me with confidence. They operate on the other side of the world, they don't understand football culture and they are not backing our manager in the way they should.

Not to mention the stuff about Rafa being sacked at the end of the season, the Mascher situation and the fact that they have already talked to other managers. You may you consider this hearsay but this is from people I've known a long time who love the club and have a bloody good idea of what is happening inside it.

Now in the face of all this, to accuse me of being melodramatic does me a disservice mate.

At lot of supporters still have their heads buried in the sand over these Americans.
Look at the plain facts that Tom has explained. Things are really wrong at our club at the minute. The Americans are here for 1 reason only, money!

They have lied about the debt, lied over transfer funds, lied about giving Rafa more control, lied over the stadium.
This summer we spent about £5million more net than normal. Yet according to the 1st article the Torres money is still owed. If thats the case the Yanks paid out virtually feck all in the summer, not forgetting we got weighed in for getting to another Champions league final.

We are being shafted, the sooner the majority recognise this the sooner something can be done.

[Johnny]

We are being shafted, the sooner the majority recognise this the sooner something can be done.

The majority prefer to wait for some facts instead of picking through London press snippings looking for gloomy financial reports.

[Rashid]

So what do we know about the Yanks?

The Facts Back Then:

• G+H made a big deal of stressing that no purchase expense will go on the club's balance sheet
• They went on TV and said that big money was available for transfers and that if Rafa wanted Snoogy Dogg they would get him
• They said in the summer a new stadium will be built on a design by HSK and it will be unique with work starting in earnest
• They spoke warmly of Rafa and said he was the best around and backed him to lead us to glory
• They admitted to speaking to Parry about Groundshare but were quickly persuaded that it wouldn't be a good idea
• Gilett was already rejected a few times by Moores
• They both worth a combined £750M, individually worth less than Steve Morgan

The Facts Now:

• The purchase expense will be by Wanchovia and if you don't believe it by now you soon will. Hicksand his advisors have admitted it in quotes.
• Rafa is not getting nor has he got the "snoogy dogg" type of money they promised
• The stadium has to be downgraded as they cannot afford the stadium they said we deserved
• Hicks has a fan club in Dallas - We have Hicks out - an organisation that hates him and the way he has run a club in USA
• Chris Bacombe who is a prominant LFC journo in addition to the broadsheets have said that they want to sack Rafa, and that the club will be hundreds of millions in debt very soon
• Since they have come in they have presided over Athens ticket fiasco, the ticket office remains the same, we are no nearer to a stadium, we will be in more debt, and the fans remain as divided as ever. Oh and they have made us a laughing stock in the press.

[mick the click]

Yes very carefully thought through at a fixed rate of interest. I also didn't lie when I applied for it and bought the house.



I was in the US early this year the downturn in the housing market was well underway and the credit crunch was being talked about by everyone. Anyone with half a brain would have factored a downturn into a future business project. Now either they are fiscally incompetant or they lied to us and Moores about how they were going to fiance the club.

They're now scrabbling about trying to find the finance for the original loans to buy the club as it has to be repaid in just over a months time. Hardly smacks of economic competance




Ok lets look at the facts.

- We're told that the financing of the club will not be paid by loading debt on the club.

Now we find out that £270 million acquisition debt is to be put on to the club's books. Interest payments of 30 million a year.

This is splitting the board and Moores is having Kittens.

-On public television wads of cash are flashed and the manager is promised snoogy doogy if he wants him.

We spend slightly more than we do normally and less than sunderland. We now find out that the Torres deal is going to be paid for by this debt. So in effect the yanks have barely backed the club at all. We're buying him by going into debt. We're paying for him. Another broken promise or lie if you want to put it that way.

Rafa is publically slapped down, told to button it and told he wont have any money for transfers unless we sell. Another broken promise.

- The fiasco of the stadium
Again, any competant financier would have known the trajectory for the price of steel is on an upward curve because of China. This should have been built into any financial model of budget overspend. Why wasn't it?

Nothing they have done fills me with confidence. They operate on the other side of the world, they don't understand football culture and they are not backing our manager in the way they should.

Not to mention the stuff about Rafa being sacked at the end of the season, the Mascher situation and the fact that they have already talked to other managers. You may you consider this hearsay but this is from people I've known a long time who love the club and have a bloody good idea of what is happening inside it.

Now in the face of all this, to accuse me of being melodramatic does me a disservice mate.

Ohhhhhh, feck me, that's gloomy. But I happen to agree with you.

[Fowler_God]

The majority prefer to wait for some facts instead of picking through London press snippings looking for gloomy financial reports.

mate the facts are there for all of us to see.
People keep believing all this is because the London press have something against us and are making stuff up. I agree they maybe bending the truth a little to have a dig, but when noises coming from the Echo are not positive, various insiders on the net are telling us things are not good then i have to believe its not.
Also solid facts tell us its not good. Net transfer spend shows they lied over how much funds were available. Masch coming out saying he wants to stay, but still no deal. Rafa having to try and shock the owners into doing something last month. The fact they DID lie to us over the loan, saying the club wouldnt have the debt, yet it will. Also they have lied over the stadium, no we will have a downgraded version.

The list is endless.
By July 2008 Liverpool football club will have a new manager (picked by people who dont have a clue), will have a debt of over £100million piled on it so some Americans could buy it, various players wanting out because the manager has been sacked, little cash for transfers and the 15th design of a stadium that they say will still be ready for 2011/12

[mick the click]

Yes very carefully thought through at a fixed rate of interest. I also didn't lie when I applied for it and bought the house.



I was in the US early this year the downturn in the housing market was well underway and the credit crunch was being talked about by everyone. Anyone with half a brain would have factored a downturn into a future business project. Now either they are fiscally incompetant or they lied to us and Moores about how they were going to fiance the club.

They're now scrabbling about trying to find the finance for the original loans to buy the club as it has to be repaid in just over a months time. Hardly smacks of economic competance




Ok lets look at the facts.

- We're told that the financing of the club will not be paid by loading debt on the club.

Now we find out that £270 million acquisition debt is to be put on to the club's books. Interest payments of 30 million a year.

This is splitting the board and Moores is having Kittens.

-On public television wads of cash are flashed and the manager is promised snoogy doogy if he wants him.

We spend slightly more than we do normally and less than sunderland. We now find out that the Torres deal is going to be paid for by this debt. So in effect the yanks have barely backed the club at all. We're buying him by going into debt. We're paying for him. Another broken promise or lie if you want to put it that way.

Rafa is publically slapped down, told to button it and told he wont have any money for transfers unless we sell. Another broken promise.

- The fiasco of the stadium
Again, any competant financier would have known the trajectory for the price of steel is on an upward curve because of China. This should have been built into any financial model of budget overspend. Why wasn't it?

Nothing they have done fills me with confidence. They operate on the other side of the world, they don't understand football culture and they are not backing our manager in the way they should.

Not to mention the stuff about Rafa being sacked at the end of the season, the Mascher situation and the fact that they have already talked to other managers. You may you consider this hearsay but this is from people I've known a long time who love the club and have a bloody good idea of what is happening inside it.

Now in the face of all this, to accuse me of being melodramatic does me a disservice mate.

Ohhhhhh, feck me, that's gloomy. But I happen to agree with your take on things.

[enema of the state]

Yes very carefully thought through at a fixed rate of interest. I also didn't lie when I applied for it and bought the house.:

you took a fixed rate???? i hope for your sake it was a long time ago because if you have any financial savvy youll know serial interest rate reductions are a certainty.

when you borrow the kind of cash these boys borrowed, you cant get a 6% fixed rate from the abbey mate - different rules apply - but i think you take my point that responsible managed debt is not a negative, yes?

I was in the US early this year the downturn in the housing market was well underway and the credit crunch was being talked about by everyone. Anyone with half a brain would have factored a downturn into a future business project. Now either they are fiscally incompetant or they lied to us and Moores about how they were going to fiance the club.:

well maybe you mix with some seriously forward seeing types mate but i can assure you that in feb/march. the majority of financial experts on both sides of the atlantic were NOT predicting the kind of financial chaos that followed the sub-prime crash in the USA. go back to the broadsheet financial pages if you need proof. the bank of england bail-out is virtually unprecedented as is the collapse of one of the UK's major mortgage lenders. The city's very best investors didnt have that one pegged in march.

in short i completely refute this point

They're now scrabbling about trying to find the finance for the original loans to buy the club as it has to be repaid in just over a months time. Hardly smacks of economic competance:

twisted view: they are undergoing a forced refinancing in the new macroeconomic environment. they have no choice about this. sorry you dont like it. what do you think they should do now instead?

Ok lets look at the facts.:

more than happy to

- We're told that the financing of the club will not be paid by loading debt on the club.:

this is correct. you take this a terrible calculated lie? i dont i take it as statement made in good faith. econioc circumstances have changed....rethink necessary. well see who is right

- Now we find out that £270 million acquisition debt is to be put on to the club's books. Interest payments of 30 million a year.:

these boys' couldnt get that 25 year 6% fixed rate with northern rock that you took out. their interest rates have gone up - what are they gonna do? something sensible i hope. if thats a manageable debt secured on the club (like a few other clubs you ought to know about) then its not a case of "loss of the club"

This is splitting the board and Moores is having Kittens.:

not quite sure this is a fact. as i understand it the board consists of american reps and parry. are you saying parry is resisting it vigorously? as for moores - his level of understanding of the current global money markets is on a level with my 4 year old chil...scratch that, my lad knows what the FTSE 100 is already.

-On public television wads of cash are flashed and the manager is promised snoogy doogy if he wants him.:

On this i agree with you. this was an extreme peice of poor judgement but i suspect the yanks reckon they HAVEsplashed the cash in underwriting the stadium

We spend slightly more than we do normally and less than sunderland. We now find out that the Torres deal is going to be paid for by this debt. So in effect the yanks have barely backed the club at all. We're buying him by going into debt. We're paying for him. Another broken promise or lie if you want to put it that way.:

again, i dont except this as public domain fact. bottom line is torres is the most expensive player lfc have ever signed. its not really a good time to be putting your head in the oven - that was the day we signed eric meijer

Rafa is publically slapped down, told to button it and told he wont have any money for transfers unless we sell. Another broken promise.:

youre simply not accurate re the transfer budget. (charity bet offer still stand btw) if you want a public domain fact about this point check parry's interview on the bbc sport website. raffa slapped down??? if you like.....there was a semi public difference of opinion/misunderstanding for sure

- The fiasco of the stadium
Again, any competant financier would have known the trajectory for the price of steel is on an upward curve because of China. This should have been built into any financial model of budget overspend. Why wasn't it?:

have a look at the graphs of world raw metal prices. they are actually plateauing to a large extent since the spring. all projects of this size overspend

Nothing they have done fills me with confidence. They operate on the other side of the world, they don't understand football culture and they are not backing our manager in the way they should.:

you have the right to hold this opinion. i disagree and feel its not consistent with the facts

Not to mention the stuff about Rafa being sacked at the end of the season, the Mascher situation and the fact that they have already talked to other managers. You may you consider this hearsay but this is from people I've known a long time who love the club and have a bloody good idea of what is happening inside it. :

again you take these rumours/facts as you will. if refa benitez phoned me up and swore on his bible each of those 2 things were true then i wouldnt regard it as "loss of the club" and i would just smile and drive to anfield tomorrow as normal

Now in the face of all this, to accuse me of being melodramatic does me a disservice mate.

nope

melodramatic is just about spot on as a description of your threads of the last 2 days

no personal offense intended