Xabi Or Masher?...You decide.

[Skillz]

Rafa and Mascher to Real in the summer

Fact/guess/rumour?

[Howard_lfc]

Rafa and Mascher to Real in the summer

really? What would surprise me about this is that RM are top of La Liga - having just been to the Nou Camp and won into the bargain. Schuster is obviously doing something right.

[Neil Young]

Rafa and Mascher to Real in the summer

It's what I fear too (at least Rafa going there - hence my concerns over the Alonso rumours) but it's just guesswork for me.

Do you really have a or are you guessing too?

[CAD]

If you could keep all five of them but three of them had to have a foot cut off which would you choose to mutilate and why?

By the way, Colin, I'm really not having a go at you. For a start I agree with you about the three maimed men...

Way overboard...

[tommyg]

Fact/guess/rumour?

guess, but its not so hard to believe is it ?

[badpiggy]

i think this is a great hypothetical (i hope)question because it says a lot about the potential direction of the club. if you value xabi above masher then you are looking to see a more creative liverpool. if it's the other way around, then you must like the cautious approach that rafa takes.

the big problem though - and shaggy, you refer to this earlier in the thread - is how xabi's game has changed. personally, i have no doubt but that rafa was uncomfortable with the type of long incisive passes that seemd to be xabi's stock-in-trade when he came first. he has undoubtedly been coached to keep it a lot tighter than that, short passes etc... the other side of this is how masher is coached by rafa. i've only seen him play for argentina 5 or 6 times but his willingness to get the ball and pass it for them is very noticeable whereas with us - and johnny giles shows this on rte nearly every week at this stage - he breaks up play and actively seeks to direct the ball away from himself once we're in possession. he never runs into space to take a pass or spread the play despite the fact that he is very capale of doing this. maybe it's just that argentina are a better team than us!

anyways, if we had a choice to make between these two playing at their best, i really don't know who i'd pick. if it'sa choice between them as they paly now, i'd have to go for xabi as masher would be another nail in the coffin of midfield creativity.

[Kopite_Colin]

The choice on Xabi or MAscherano in my book is dictated by how creative your wide MF players aare. if you have the likes of Ronaldo and Giggs available, then Mascherano is ideal. If you are looking to move th ball around with the likes of Hleb and Rosicky (or previously Ljunberg) making clever runs then Xabi's your man. But I do like to to see Xabi further up th pitch rather than sitting so deep.

[bazza76]

Rafa Benitez remains confident Javier Mascherano will sign for Liverpool on a permanent basis, and he has ruled out a move for Chelsea defender Wayne Bridge.

Mascherano has expressed his frustration at the club’s inability to tie up a deal for the Argentina international, who is attracting increasing interest from Juventus.

Liverpool's owners are believed to be stalling over the midfielder's £17 million price tag, although the fee is also thought to be inclusive of wages.

Benitez has assured Reds fans he is doing everything he can to bring the midfielder to the club, pointing out the fact that Liverpool still have first option on the player.

"We know Juventus and other top sides are interested in him but we have the option," Benitez told the club’s official website.

"Javier is happy here and wants to stay. We will do our best to keep him here."

Meanwhile, Benitez admitted he is looking to bolster his defence during the January window, but not at left back.

Wayne Bridge had been linked with a £7 million move to Anfield, but Benitez is adamant it is central cover he requires.

"We are looking for a centre back and not a left back," he said.

"We are working hard with the new owners and the chief executive to find an option."

[El Jefecito]

I voted El Jefecito, there is no-one else in world football who is as near as good a holding midfielder as him.

Lucas, Plessis and Adarjevic all could very well play the Xabi role (assuming they carry on their progress).

[Alpha]

i think this is a great hypothetical (i hope)question because it says a lot about the potential direction of the club. if you value xabi above masher then you are looking to see a more creative liverpool. if it's the other way around, then you must like the cautious approach that rafa takes.

the big problem though - and shaggy, you refer to this earlier in the thread - is how xabi's game has changed. personally, i have no doubt but that rafa was uncomfortable with the type of long incisive passes that seemd to be xabi's stock-in-trade when he came first. he has undoubtedly been coached to keep it a lot tighter than that, short passes etc... the other side of this is how masher is coached by rafa. i've only seen him play for argentina 5 or 6 times but his willingness to get the ball and pass it for them is very noticeable whereas with us - and johnny giles shows this on rte nearly every week at this stage - he breaks up play and actively seeks to direct the ball away from himself once we're in possession. he never runs into space to take a pass or spread the play despite the fact that he is very capale of doing this. maybe it's just that argentina are a better team than us!

anyways, if we had a choice to make between these two playing at their best, i really don't know who i'd pick. if it'sa choice between them as they paly now, i'd have to go for xabi as masher would be another nail in the coffin of midfield creativity.

Very good post that.

The one point I disagree with though is the assertion that we are a less creative team with Mascherano than with Alonso.

Although Masher is less creative individually than Xabi, it is his destructive qualities that allow our other creative players to thrive.

Many teams, especially those with pace, are at their most dangerous during the transition from defence to attack and Masher's ability to turn-over possession so quickly and frequently, provides more opportunities for our quick, creative players to break quickly and take advantage of space. Not only that but the level of security he provides allows those quick, creative players to advance in numbers.

I wouldn't venture to suggest that we are more creative with Masher than Alonso but El Jefe allows us to be creative in a way that Xabi doesn't. And vice versa.

By the way, I voted that is was too painful to choose.

[Lee]

Like Mascherano alot.

However, we've got a steady defence and need creative players - keep Alonso is my vote (especially if we're comparing them when they're playing to their best).

[Kopite_Colin]

Very good post that.

The one point I disagree with though is the assertion that we are a less creative team with Mascherano than with Alonso.

Although Masher is less creative individually than Xabi, it is his destructive qualities that allow our other creative players to thrive.

Many teams, especially those with pace, are at their most dangerous during the transition from defence to attack and Masher's ability to turn-over possession so quickly and frequently, provides more opportunities for our quick, creative players to break quickly and take advantage of space. Not only that but the level of security he provides allows those quick, creative players to advance in numbers.

I wouldn't venture to suggest that we are more creative with Masher than Alonso but El Jefe allows us to be creative in a way that Xabi doesn't. And vice versa.

By the way, I voted that is was too painful to choose.

Alpha I think you make a very good point here. IF we can find another attacking player (e.g. left wing) with Babel's & Torres's pace for the 1st 11, we would have at least 4 attacking players (Torres, Babel, Gerrard + 1) which could make use of Mash's quick turnover ball. that would make us a very dangerous team on the break.

[badpiggy]

Alpha I think you make a very good point here. IF we can find another attacking player (e.g. left wing) with Babel's & Torres's pace for the 1st 11, we would have at least 4 attacking players (Torres, Babel, Gerrard + 1) which could make use of Mash's quick turnover ball. that would make us a very dangerous team on the break.

it's funny how people are now starting to think more negatively about football. this idea relies on the premise that the player who gets the ball after masher can do something cretive with it whereas a more old-fashioned idea would be that masher should be able to do something creative with it himself after winning it. in fact, i;m becoming slightly tired of this newly created position of a midfielder who "protects" the back 4. it takes away the traditional responsibility of the midfielder. of course the obvios solutin in our case - and it works in theory - is to play xabi and masher in the middle and gerrard on the right wing...

[Kopite_Colin]

BadPiggy - FWIW - I agree with you. In an ideal world I would want 2 Gerrards patrolling CM for my team - equally capable of attacking and defending. I was one of the first on the old KT to come out and say get rid of Didi (and got slated for it). I actually think Mash (and Alonso for that matter - not seen enough of Lucas yet) can play that role if teh manager will let them. Alonso is very good in the attacking third of the pitch and can tackle as well as most. Mascher has been going on more forward runs in recent games, and looking OK at doing it.

My biggest gripe is that in the modern game, most teams play with one or 2 up at most (occasionally 3), yet when a team goes out with a "Mascherano-type" player in the 1st 11, that effectively means you have 5 defenders looking after 1 or 2 players at most, unless you have 2 really attacking fullbacks. This is why it drives me crazy to see us when we do attack with very often only 1 or 2 players in the penalty area. If the defending team only leaves one play up top, then the maximum number of players you need back is 2: either 2 CBS (who can tackle) or 1 CB, and 1 Mascher-type tackler.

It's not rocket science. Players coming from deep are so much harder to pick up: SG playing CM is a classic example (and the reason why he shouldn't play off the front man as asked to do against Wigan). Football is a very simple game - it's coaches who complicate it unecessarily - and unfortunately because Rafa is good at doing it for the VERY big games against quality opposition, he get's pre-occupied by it for all other games to.

Like someone elase on here said earlier. We shouldn't need any instruction - intelligent, quality players should simply go out and batter the opposition into submission at home. That's what we used to do, and why you hear LFC player sof the 70's and 80's say they were given little instruction in general - we knew we were better we just went out and proved it more often than not. 5-a-sides honed the skills they already had, we didn't need to practice particlar ways of attacking / defending; we just went out and did it. Yes I know the game's changed - but the fundamentals are the same: score more than the opposition. It's a fundamental premice of the game, and one many modern coaches forget. I'd rather win 5-4, 4-3 etc more often than not, and lose the odd one from really shoddy defending / being exposed at the back than get caught out being dragged back to 1-1 by mediocre sides from failing to commit enough players forward to score the second goal.

[Neil Young]

BF - FWIW - I agree with you. In an ideal world I would want 2 Gerrards patrolling CM for my team - equally capable of attacking and defending. I was one of the first on the old KT to come out and say get rid of Didi (and got slated for it). I actually think Mash (and Alonso for that matter - not seen enough of Lucas yet) can play that role if teh manager will let them. Alonso is very good in the attacking third of the pitch and can tackle as well as most. Mascher has been going on more forward runs in recent games, and looking OK at doing it.

My biggest gripe is that in the modern game, most teams play with one or 2 up at most (occasionally 3), yet when a team goes out with a "Mascherano-type" player in the 1st 11, that effectively means you have 5 defenders looking after 1 or 2 players at most, unless you have 2 really attacking fullbacks. This is why it drives me crazy to see us when we do attack with very often only 1 or 2 players in the penalty area. If the defending team only leaves one play up top, then the maximum number of players you need back is 2: eitehr 2 CBS (who can tackle) or 1 CB, and 1 Mascher-type tackler.

I think you've hit the nail on the head - I reckon (and I know I'm not being particularly original in saying this) Rafa wants to play this way.

The question is, do you set up the team to play in a way that suits the players you have until you have all the players required to play the way the manager wants or do you try to play the desired style of football/strategy with what you have at your disposal and try to improve the players available bit by bit?

If, as I think Rafa believes, you need a fairly defensive-minded ball-winner in midfield to protect the two centre-backs and attacking full-backs (who are excellent athletes to get up and down the pitch quickly) to compensate, give outlets for attacking play, etc. then you can't just switch from one style of football to another as these things take time to develop.