Question for those who dont want rafa gone...

[Craig_H]

Surely the definition of consistency, well here it is:

Reliability or uniformity of successive results or events: pitched with remarkable consistency throughout the season.

2 seasons below us smacks of INCONSISTENCY.

If you actually look at their record, yes Wenger has won the league 3 times in 11 years, they haven't CONSISTENTLY challenged for the title. What say you?

Wenger has finished either 1st or 2nd in 8 out of 11 full seasons.

Either won it or been runners up. That's what i mean.

Because it contradicts what you are trying to achieve and damages your agenda.

Football fans are vastly different now. I personally blame Rupert Murdoch.

Yawn. If you think the game is the same now as it was 20 years ago, then there's no helping you.

11 players per team? A round ball? 2 goals? A centre circle? Or the generation of Sky Sports watchers and tabloid readers?

Yawn...

I'm sure i've heard you comment previously on JM's lack of any semblance of class. He's about as far from what many would consider a Liverpool manager as it's possible to be.

I'm sure you havent. I dont buy into all the mind games nonsense, unlike some.

Can you answer this part of my previous post, which you seemingly ignored?

That aside, the problem is that, as well as the enforced obstacles rafa has to deal with, he constructs his own. He makes daft decisions, picks unnecessarily weaker sides, makes odd subs, doesnt pick a side regularly enough to obtain some stability and plays players out of position. He adjusts his own style to suit inferior opponents and is overly cautious.

That's his way, it's how he does things. No amount of financial backing will change his core ethos of how to manage his club. He's been this way for four years, why is it suddenly going to change?

The issue is that he doesnt use the players he HAS properly and i see no reason to think that his ethos would just change by simply having more money to spend.

And aside from ALL that...the squad we have now is EASILY good enough to finish 4th. It's easily good enough to batter Luton away, Havant and Barnsley. As well as Brum, Wigan, Reading etc etc...

But we dont do it. Why?

Do you think we're not good enough to beat those sides?

Either we arent good enough, or if we are, then rafa's not doing the business and it's his fault.

Thanks.

[Craig_H]

DJS if DIC come in would you be willing to give Rafa a 5th season in charge? Lets say he is given the go ahead to pursue his top targets with a large transfer budget and he gets the full backing of the boards. Surely in this scenario he will challenge for the title (or so the RCDNW brigade say)

Difficult question blacky. I still think he'd be rotation obsessed, he'd play players out of position, be rigid in his approach, refuse to make subs at half time no matter what happens (barring injury) and be too cautious and willing to change our style to suit inferior opposition.

I dont see how anyone can challenge for the league by doing all those things.

[Craig_H]

But you don't consider any argument that differs from yours valid.

Yes i do. I have a problem with arguments that ignore the facts, however.

Which ever way you dress it up, the buck stops with the manager in any organisation.

[red g]

That's because wenger takes risks. He puts faith in his youth. The likes of Clichy, Fabregas, Van Persie even Walcott have all been given 1st team exposure in the premiership. Short term Arsenal finished below us these 2 seasons but the dividends are showing now.

wenger can take risks with youth, he has got as much time on his side to get it right.....not sure if he did when he first came. what happens if rafa took that risk this year and we finished 6/7th in the current climate - sacked.
remember wenger has been at arsenal 11 seasons so unfair to compare the 2.

[Tatterdemalion]

I think Rafa should stay.

He is 3.5 years through a longer term project which should start to bear fruit in the coming years. When he arrived at the club, he felt the strength in depth at the club, especially coming from the academy was poor. I don't want to get into an argument about whether it was poor or not, just to say that it is pretty obvious he thought so.

In an ideal world, money would be spent on top class (or v promising) players, whereas the squad fillers would come from the youth system - with one or two now and then becoming world class players in their own right. Eventually, you can fill the squad with world class talent.

Because there was a perceived lack of talent in the youth team/reserves, then those squad fillers (assuming you would agree that they were needed in the first place) have to be bought - this obviously reduces the amount of money which can be spent elsewhere as well. The result in my opinion is that the quality which can be purchased - right across the team - is reduced as a result - ergo we sign Pennant, not Alves etc.

The reason I think this will get better is that we have packed out the youth/reserves lately. I don't really follow them, so I can't say that any of them are any good, but from the comments I see other people making, some of them are pretty good, and will at least be good enough to be squad fillers for a few seasons.

Apart from anything else going on behind the scenes, this will release money to be spent in other areas, which should mean that the quality of player which can be purchased should go up.

I think that when Benitez has bought players like Kronkamp, Josemi, Voronin etc. he is trying to fill out the squad. I'm sure he realises that these players aren't world class players who should fill the position for years to come. I am sure he realises they are only good enough to do a functional job until he can find something better - so I wouldn't criticise him for buying in that sort of player.

The question to me is can Rafa be trusted when it comes to spending large amounts of money on a single player? Or, when he has the financial capacity to go after his first choice players, or those players good enough? I think he can, as signings of Reina, Alonso (until recently perhaps), Torres (whom some on here thought would not be good enough!), Agger, Babel (yes, good promise, not the finished article yet) attest to.

However, there are the more unfortunate cases, where decent money has been spent, where the end result is Kuyt etc. But I honestly don't think that he was a first choice (if you remember, Moores had to lend the money to buy him, so clearly money was tight, which suggests that if money was there, Kuyt would not have been first choice). Morientes perhaps is the one example I would point to, although he wasn't that expensive, and his record was pretty good before he signed for us.

I'm not suggesting that this should excuse some of his strange team selections or substitutions, but what I am saying is that 1) some of the young players who have been brought in will be knocking on the first team door in the next few years. 2) This will relieve financial pressure elsewhere in the team, allowing Benitez to get more of his first choices 3) By and large, he can be trusted to have decent players as first choices.

I just don't believe that the majority of signings Benitez has made can be described as first choices, if he had more money to spend. And yes, I realise that he has had lots of money to spend, but I also believe that he has felt that he has had to rebuild an entire squad with that money, not just buy a couple of players.

I think it would be a shame if Benitez left now, when it is the next 3 years that will tell whether his long term strategy works or not (not the last 3). Furthermore, we will only have to start again.

I promise I am just as frustrated as you are right now, but I would bet that the most frustrated Liverpool fan right now is probably Benitez himself.

[Robster007]

Can you answer this part of my previous post, which you seemingly ignored?



Thanks.



That aside, the problem is that, as well as the enforced obstacles rafa has to deal with, he constructs his own. He makes daft decisions, picks unnecessarily weaker sides, makes odd subs, doesnt pick a side regularly enough to obtain some stability and plays players out of position. He adjusts his own style to suit inferior opponents and is overly cautious.

That's his way, it's how he does things. No amount of financial backing will change his core ethos of how to manage his club. He's been this way for four years, why is it suddenly going to change?

The issue is that he doesnt use the players he HAS properly and i see no reason to think that his ethos would just change by simply having more money to spend.

And aside from ALL that...the squad we have now is EASILY good enough to finish 4th. It's easily good enough to batter Luton away, Havant and Barnsley. As well as Brum, Wigan, Reading etc etc...

But we dont do it. Why?

Do you think we're not good enough to beat those sides?

Either we arent good enough, or if we are, then rafa's not doing the business and it's his fault.

Yawn.

How's that? It seems to be enough for you. You demand answers, but dismiss others questions. That's why you have the reputation you have.

[Joe Le Toff]

I think from a psychological angle the loss of Pako and the decision to not replace him with another assistant has been massive. With all the off field bull**** I think that Rafa's cold approach to player relations needed to be counter balanced by someone who dealt with the players on a more personable level.

I also think that Rafa needs someone to work ideas off whether he thinks that or not. I think rotating players who are not brimming with confidence may be part of the problem. I don't intrinsically think rotation is a problem but if you want to change systems then players need to have real belief.

I would still like to give Rafa another year but only if he accepts the need to make changes and the one I would demand is that he has a proper assistant with the qualities outlined to some extent above.

Couldnt agree more with your assistant comments - i think its had a huge effect this season and if Rafa does stay then it should be made a priority to get one in.

For the record - I'd love Gary Mac to come in

[Craig_H]

Yawn.

How's that? It seems to be enough for you.

Didnt think so.

[CharlieMansonsSquint]

These threads are pointless IMO, because those who don't think he's good enough will not be convinced otherwise and vice versa.

It's frighteningly similar to the end of Houllier's reign, where the majority have lost patience with the managers constant failings and results and where the pro manager mob still believe he'll turn it round, and nobody in either camp is prepared to budge.

The difference this time is that Rafa is capable of turning it around where Houllier wasn't. But Rafa's been making these mistakes for the past two years, so we're getting to the stage where we have to start being realistic about him.

[Craig_H]

It's frighteningly similar to the end of Houllier's reign, where the majority have lost patience with the managers constant failings and results and where the pro manager mob still believe he'll turn it round, and nobody in either camp is prepared to budge.

Do they REALLY think he'll turn it round? Or do they just hope?

[red g]

I think Rafa should stay.

He is 3.5 years through a longer term project which should start to bear fruit in the coming years. When he arrived at the club, he felt the strength in depth at the club, especially coming from the academy was poor. I don't want to get into an argument about whether it was poor or not, just to say that it is pretty obvious he thought so.

In an ideal world, money would be spent on top class (or v promising) players, whereas the squad fillers would come from the youth system - with one or two now and then becoming world class players in their own right. Eventually, you can fill the squad with world class talent.

Because there was a perceived lack of talent in the youth team/reserves, then those squad fillers (assuming you would agree that they were needed in the first place) have to be bought - this obviously reduces the amount of money which can be spent elsewhere as well. The result in my opinion is that the quality which can be purchased - right across the team - is reduced as a result - ergo we sign Pennant, not Alves etc.

The reason I think this will get better is that we have packed out the youth/reserves lately. I don't really follow them, so I can't say that any of them are any good, but from the comments I see other people making, some of them are pretty good, and will at least be good enough to be squad fillers for a few seasons.

Apart from anything else going on behind the scenes, this will release money to be spent in other areas, which should mean that the quality of player which can be purchased should go up.

I think that when Benitez has bought players like Kronkamp, Josemi, Voronin etc. he is trying to fill out the squad. I'm sure he realises that these players aren't world class players who should fill the position for years to come. I am sure he realises they are only good enough to do a functional job until he can find something better - so I wouldn't criticise him for buying in that sort of player.

The question to me is can Rafa be trusted when it comes to spending large amounts of money on a single player? Or, when he has the financial capacity to go after his first choice players, or those players good enough? I think he can, as signings of Reina, Alonso (until recently perhaps), Torres (whom some on here thought would not be good enough!), Agger, Babel (yes, good promise, not the finished article yet) attest to.

However, there are the more unfortunate cases, where decent money has been spent, where the end result is Kuyt etc. But I honestly don't think that he was a first choice (if you remember, Moores had to lend the money to buy him, so clearly money was tight, which suggests that if money was there, Kuyt would not have been first choice). Morientes perhaps is the one example I would point to, although he wasn't that expensive, and his record was pretty good before he signed for us.

I'm not suggesting that this should excuse some of his strange team selections or substitutions, but what I am saying is that 1) some of the young players who have been brought in will be knocking on the first team door in the next few years. 2) This will relieve financial pressure elsewhere in the team, allowing Benitez to get more of his first choices 3) By and large, he can be trusted to have decent players as first choices.

I just don't believe that the majority of signings Benitez has made can be described as first choices, if he had more money to spend. And yes, I realise that he has had lots of money to spend, but I also believe that he has felt that he has had to rebuild an entire squad with that money, not just buy a couple of players.

I think it would be a shame if Benitez left now, when it is the next 3 years that will tell whether his long term strategy works or not (not the last 3). Furthermore, we will only have to start again.

I promise I am just as frustrated as you are right now, but I would bet that the most frustrated Liverpool fan right now is probably Benitez himself.

great post

[Robster007]

Didnt think so.

Would you like to review your own answers DJS? Why is it acceptable for you to answer with a yawn, but god forbid anyone does it to you?

I'll hold my hands up to being over emotional and a hypocrite at times, but you really are the biggest hypocrite on this or any other Liverpool site.

Practice what you preach. If you want respect and answers to your questions, you should afford others the same.

[Robster007]

I think Rafa should stay.

He is 3.5 years through a longer term project which should start to bear fruit in the coming years. When he arrived at the club, he felt the strength in depth at the club, especially coming from the academy was poor. I don't want to get into an argument about whether it was poor or not, just to say that it is pretty obvious he thought so.

In an ideal world, money would be spent on top class (or v promising) players, whereas the squad fillers would come from the youth system - with one or two now and then becoming world class players in their own right. Eventually, you can fill the squad with world class talent.

Because there was a perceived lack of talent in the youth team/reserves, then those squad fillers (assuming you would agree that they were needed in the first place) have to be bought - this obviously reduces the amount of money which can be spent elsewhere as well. The result in my opinion is that the quality which can be purchased - right across the team - is reduced as a result - ergo we sign Pennant, not Alves etc.

The reason I think this will get better is that we have packed out the youth/reserves lately. I don't really follow them, so I can't say that any of them are any good, but from the comments I see other people making, some of them are pretty good, and will at least be good enough to be squad fillers for a few seasons.

Apart from anything else going on behind the scenes, this will release money to be spent in other areas, which should mean that the quality of player which can be purchased should go up.

I think that when Benitez has bought players like Kronkamp, Josemi, Voronin etc. he is trying to fill out the squad. I'm sure he realises that these players aren't world class players who should fill the position for years to come. I am sure he realises they are only good enough to do a functional job until he can find something better - so I wouldn't criticise him for buying in that sort of player.

The question to me is can Rafa be trusted when it comes to spending large amounts of money on a single player? Or, when he has the financial capacity to go after his first choice players, or those players good enough? I think he can, as signings of Reina, Alonso (until recently perhaps), Torres (whom some on here thought would not be good enough!), Agger, Babel (yes, good promise, not the finished article yet) attest to.

However, there are the more unfortunate cases, where decent money has been spent, where the end result is Kuyt etc. But I honestly don't think that he was a first choice (if you remember, Moores had to lend the money to buy him, so clearly money was tight, which suggests that if money was there, Kuyt would not have been first choice). Morientes perhaps is the one example I would point to, although he wasn't that expensive, and his record was pretty good before he signed for us.

I'm not suggesting that this should excuse some of his strange team selections or substitutions, but what I am saying is that 1) some of the young players who have been brought in will be knocking on the first team door in the next few years. 2) This will relieve financial pressure elsewhere in the team, allowing Benitez to get more of his first choices 3) By and large, he can be trusted to have decent players as first choices.

I just don't believe that the majority of signings Benitez has made can be described as first choices, if he had more money to spend. And yes, I realise that he has had lots of money to spend, but I also believe that he has felt that he has had to rebuild an entire squad with that money, not just buy a couple of players.

I think it would be a shame if Benitez left now, when it is the next 3 years that will tell whether his long term strategy works or not (not the last 3). Furthermore, we will only have to start again.

I promise I am just as frustrated as you are right now, but I would bet that the most frustrated Liverpool fan right now is probably Benitez himself.

Superb post.

[Craig_H]

Would you like to review your own answers DJS? Why is it acceptable for you to answer with a yawn, but god forbid anyone does it to you?

I'll hold my hands up to being over emotional and a hypocrite at times, but you really are the biggest hypocrite on this or any other Liverpool site.

Practice what you preach. If you want respect and answers to your questions, you should afford others the same.

Because i think football is different to how it was 20 years ago, you dont. That's that.

I asked a question about whether you think we're good enough for 4th place and to beat barnsley, luton &havant comfortably etc...and you didnt answer.

If we're good enough, but not doing so, then questions have to be asked.

If you think we're not good enough to do those things, then that's another issue.

[Red_hot]

I think Rafa should stay.

He is 3.5 years through a longer term project which should start to bear fruit in the coming years. When he arrived at the club, he felt the strength in depth at the club, especially coming from the academy was poor. I don't want to get into an argument about whether it was poor or not, just to say that it is pretty obvious he thought so.

In an ideal world, money would be spent on top class (or v promising) players, whereas the squad fillers would come from the youth system - with one or two now and then becoming world class players in their own right. Eventually, you can fill the squad with world class talent.

Because there was a perceived lack of talent in the youth team/reserves, then those squad fillers (assuming you would agree that they were needed in the first place) have to be bought - this obviously reduces the amount of money which can be spent elsewhere as well. The result in my opinion is that the quality which can be purchased - right across the team - is reduced as a result - ergo we sign Pennant, not Alves etc.

The reason I think this will get better is that we have packed out the youth/reserves lately. I don't really follow them, so I can't say that any of them are any good, but from the comments I see other people making, some of them are pretty good, and will at least be good enough to be squad fillers for a few seasons.

Apart from anything else going on behind the scenes, this will release money to be spent in other areas, which should mean that the quality of player which can be purchased should go up.

I think that when Benitez has bought players like Kronkamp, Josemi, Voronin etc. he is trying to fill out the squad. I'm sure he realises that these players aren't world class players who should fill the position for years to come. I am sure he realises they are only good enough to do a functional job until he can find something better - so I wouldn't criticise him for buying in that sort of player.

The question to me is can Rafa be trusted when it comes to spending large amounts of money on a single player? Or, when he has the financial capacity to go after his first choice players, or those players good enough? I think he can, as signings of Reina, Alonso (until recently perhaps), Torres (whom some on here thought would not be good enough!), Agger, Babel (yes, good promise, not the finished article yet) attest to.

However, there are the more unfortunate cases, where decent money has been spent, where the end result is Kuyt etc. But I honestly don't think that he was a first choice (if you remember, Moores had to lend the money to buy him, so clearly money was tight, which suggests that if money was there, Kuyt would not have been first choice). Morientes perhaps is the one example I would point to, although he wasn't that expensive, and his record was pretty good before he signed for us.

I'm not suggesting that this should excuse some of his strange team selections or substitutions, but what I am saying is that 1) some of the young players who have been brought in will be knocking on the first team door in the next few years. 2) This will relieve financial pressure elsewhere in the team, allowing Benitez to get more of his first choices 3) By and large, he can be trusted to have decent players as first choices.

I just don't believe that the majority of signings Benitez has made can be described as first choices, if he had more money to spend. And yes, I realise that he has had lots of money to spend, but I also believe that he has felt that he has had to rebuild an entire squad with that money, not just buy a couple of players.

I think it would be a shame if Benitez left now, when it is the next 3 years that will tell whether his long term strategy works or not (not the last 3). Furthermore, we will only have to start again.

I promise I am just as frustrated as you are right now, but I would bet that the most frustrated Liverpool fan right now is probably Benitez himself.