Question for those who dont want rafa gone...

[The Erectile Banana]

Yeah it was a really good post. Hurts to be in agreement with it, frankly, but he hit the nail on the head.

He certainly did.

Fair play to breffniboy - cutting through all the ****e and hype.

I really didn't think it would end up like this under Rafa, I really had a huge amount of belief in him, more than I had than in any of our other managers since King Kenny.

It's so sad to see his reign begin to disintegrate into the type of horrible mess that typified the end of the GH era. Obviously, there's still time for things to pick up this season but I really can't see that happening now.

[SRR]

Ok, i agree there. I go back to the point about motivation - something he doesnt seem to be very good at.

You are making the assumption that Rafa isn't doing anything to motivate them. How do you know that?

For me there are too many players out there that are only interested in the money and nothing else and at the end of the day they pick up the pay cheque regardless.

In an ideal would players would be subjected to performance related pay, basic salary of a couple of grand a week rest of their salary made up based on performance game by game. I'd like to see some of our players survive that way, a couple of bad games and the WAGS would be beating the **** out of them.

[Ron_Mexico]

took this from garstonite on RAWK, he's written it far better than i could and i agree with every word:

A lot has been made of how our players look disinterested. How there is a lack of fight and ambition in our players. How they look vulnerable. While in any other circumstance you could forgive them for this given what is happening at the club both on and off the field, but there is absolutely no justification of it when you're talking about it in relation to Liverpool Football Club.

It's a word that Benitez uses a lot, but it's clearly not transmitted to his squad. Situations like this are always know to show you the characters of the players you have. It tests them. And guess what? Our boys have failed. Miserably. Steven Gerrard- the local lad. The one who grew up supporting the reds and would do absolutely anything for the cause failed two tests in successive summers and at crisis point, when the opportunity to properly redeem himself occurs, he fails once more. He's as distant as any of them and that thoroughly disappoints me. Because not only is he the local boy who cares, he's our captain, our skipper. It's all well and good when things are going well and you can score pretty free-kicks, but where has he been? Why hasn't he grabbed those around him and given them the earful they deserve?

There are fine lines in this sport and I won't deny that if one of the chances we had when the game was at 1-0 had gone in, this topic wouldn't have existed. BUT, today was another in a long, long line of chances to get our season back on track and once more the players looked disjointed and never at any point confident. Teams went to Anfield and were beaten before they had even stepped out onto the pitch. Roy Keane said the same of the Manchester United sides of the 90s. He could smell the fear in the opposition. Anfield was a fortress but this season has been easy pickings for teams that we should have blown away.

Is it down to tactics? Quality? Of course, they're all factors. But the real disappointment is in the players lack of fight. People are quick to criticise players such as Dirk Kuyt and Mohamed Sissoko for their lack of ability, but one thing that always stopped them from being unanimously villified is and was their enthusiasm. Their determination to do their best. To fight for the Liverpool cause. That's why the players you'll see me criticising will have been those that haven't pulled their fingers out. You pick up a cheque at the end of the month with a ridiculous number on it, funded by supporters who will outlive you, then you make it your duty to leave the pitch knowing that you simply couldn't have done anymore.

How many of our players can truly look at themselves in the mirror after a game? More importantly, how many of them truly care? The fact of the matter is, it seems to be a 'job', rather than an honour, to too many of them?

Fans give their time, their money, their commitment and energy towards the club. They do their time. How many of the players do? How many go into training desperate to play at the weekend because they want to prove themselves - install their name into Liverpool folklore and be adored by the fans? Not enough, obviously.

But the fans aren't abject from this as well. Everybody seems to have this great knowledge of how the Liverpool way should be incorporated onto the field, but maybe they are spending too much time worrying about that, because a lot seem to forget what role they play in it. To support your team unconditionally, to do your part in the battle. The it's us and against the world spirit is what separated us from the rest, but when we call for the head of a manager that gives every ounce of time he has on plotting Liverpool's quest for domination, how can we boast this? When our fans become as fickle as those that we once laughed at and pitied, then who are we to think we are different, anyway?

Is it the modern-day mentality? I want, I want, I want. Is it people who genuinely believe they know best and are wanting to put their points across as if it is some sort simply equation? Regardless, managers manager, players play and supporters support. And at the moment, our support is being put to the test and as difficult as it may be, that's what we must do. Calling this season a write off, saying the manager is not up to the task and calling player X, Y and Z ****e is not helping anybody.

A Chinese military treatise called the "Art Of War" published an old idiom: "Know Your Enemies". Now vent your frustration on an Internet forum or down the pub all you like. Curse about rotation, about zonal marking, about whatever else. But when it steps beyond that - as we are dangerously edging towards - remember that.

[Craig_H]

You are making the assumption that Rafa isn't doing anything to motivate them. How do you know that?

For me there are too many players out there that are only interested in the money and nothing else and at the end of the day they pick up the pay cheque regardless.

In an ideal would players would be subjected to performance related pay, basic salary of a couple of grand a week rest of their salary made up based on performance game by game. I'd like to see some of our players survive that way, a couple of bad games and the WAGS would be beating the **** out of them.

No i'm not making the assumption that Rafa isn't doing anything to motivate them, i'm making the observation that what he IS doing isnt working.

[shanks69]

rafa has lost the players in my opinion.you can see it on the pitch.it must be sickening for someone like babel to be playing well then get takin off for someone who has done nothing for years.babel will probably play against inter but he won't finish as he will be subbed again, then likley not play against boro.yossi didn't play too bad today he's likley to be on the bench against inter and not figure against boro.thats just 2 points which if i was a player would just do my head in,how can a player get any kind of form going if he plays 1 game out for 2 then plays 2 and out for 1 game.

[Skillz]

No offence mate, but that comes across as head-in-the-sand.

It's possible it's not the manager, but we're clutching at straws there, it's no coincidence that he makes odd decisions and, funnily enough, we dont challenge for the title.

It comes down to this for me, nothing more and nothing less - the squad is EASILY good enough to finish top four and yet, it's a struggle. It shouldnt be and ultimately, there's one man who must take the lion's share of the responsibility, and that's rafa.
It's funny but people hail rafa as a genius and use Istanbul for evidence.
If he takes credit for getting it right, he has to be responsible for when it goes wrong too. People use results and achievements as evidence of his ability, but when results and achievements (or lack thereof) paint a darker picture, it's then somehow anything else's fault, but not rafa's.

Cant have it both ways.

You see DJS, this is where we differ slightly. Rafa must take some of the blame without doubt but the number of our seasoned players, veterans in fact, that for whatever reason have played well below their normal level for long periods this year are the main reason why we aren't challenging Chelsea for third at least.

These players are seasoned professionals and they surely have to be held accountable for their own form and condition as much as Rafa and the rest of his staff are. They are not children, nor are they robots, but they are well paid professionals.

[ronniedrew]

for me the thing is

i have been supporting the reds full time for about 15 years (aged 30 now), always had the jerseys etc as a nipper, but results started affect my moods etcf from about 15


so i dont really know much about winning league titles, yeah, i have seen the hightlights and read the books, but never experienced it, very pleasurable , i presume

then, along comes rafa and i witness istanbul after years of o.kish times, a few cups etc. highs better than any drug, unrivalled memories of utter happiness, great feeliongs, and the envy of everyone, one of the great finals and great football stories of modern times.

and then he makes another final , unreal.

do i believe ?, yes, more than i ever have in any of my other 14 years as a pool supporter.

and the thing is , these are the best times ever for most supporters on this forum (age wise) and still they look for "better" options, if rafa is given the time and the money, he better be better than fergie and wenger imo.

[El Jefecito]

Players looked pretty fired up today, to me anyway. Cant see why someone walking away from that game would say we didn't try/weren't motivated. We had something like 30+ shots. This motiviation thing is a red herring.

[Craig_H]

Players looked pretty fired up today, to me anyway. Cant see why someone walking away from that game would say we didn't try/weren't motivated. We had something like 30+ shots. This motiviation thing is a red herring.

I think motivation has been a problem this season. You could maybe say it wasnt an issue today, but it has been in other games.

[Kronenburg1892]

but when heads are down and confidence is low, the manager has to change that.

You think we're ****. Playing **** football. Kuyt's ****, Pennat, Riise, Hypia should have been recycled into glue two seasons ago. Kewell is ****, Alonso's form is ****, Finan's been ****, Aurellio has potential when fit, but when he plays he's ****. Veronin was free, but just like dog **** on the pavement, you never pay for the privilege.

We're a **** team with only two/three/four/five decent players.

Ask yourself what role you play in that process? Amplify your stance into the media and how that recycles back into the minds of fans and then back on to the players. Maybe that on top of all the off field crap.

People slate Jose Mourinho, but his psychological influence on players was excellent, he got into the players minds and made them firmly believe they were unbeatable.

He, as well as the players, knew they were the most expensively constructed team, head hunted with no limit on cost. Managing that lot would be a piece of piss.

As has been mentioned already, the fact that rafa cant seem to change this suggests that the players have also lost faith in him...or they already know he wont be there next season.

Which boils back down to the off field stuff.

Vicious circle. Get a few good wins under the belt things could change.

[SRR]

Ok, i agree there. I go back to the point about motivation - something he doesnt seem to be very good at.

I agree motivation is an issue and yes maybe Rafa is to blame but you could also argue that the captain should also be motivating the players on the pitch, when have you seen that this season from either Gerrard or Carragher?

[The Erectile Banana]

I agree motivation is an issue and yes maybe Rafa is to blame but you could also argue that the captain should also be motivating the players on the pitch, when have you seen that this season from either Gerrard or Carragher?

Gerrard has never been a good motivator.

He's always been one to motivate by example more than anything else.

There's a real lack of natural leaders in our team and that's a big part of our problem.

[wavydavy]

You think we're ****. Playing **** football. Kuyt's ****, Pennat, Riise, Hypia should have been recycled into glue two seasons ago. Kewell is ****, Alonso's form is ****, Finan's been ****, Aurellio has potential when fit, but when he plays he's ****. Veronin was free, but just like dog **** on the pavement, you never pay for the privilege.

We're a **** team with only two/three/four/five decent players.

Ask yourself what role you play in that process? Amplify your stance into the media and how that recycles back into the minds of fans and then back on to the players. Maybe that on top of all the off field crap.



He, as well as the players, knew they were the most expensively constructed team, head hunted with no limit on cost. Managing that lot would be a piece of piss.



Which boils back down to the off field stuff.

Vicious circle. Get a few good wins under the belt things could change.

You're obviously not talking about 2004 European champions Porto then?

[El Jefecito]

I agree motivation is an issue and yes maybe Rafa is to blame but you could also argue that the captain should also be motivating the players on the pitch, when have you seen that this season from either Gerrard or Carragher?

Notice how Rafa and Cappellos approach to the players is the same. Capello is a messiah because of it yet according to the "experts" on here it makes Rafa a doofus.

[SRR]

Notice how Rafa and Cappellos approach to the players is the same. Capello is a messiah because of it yet according to the "experts" on here it makes Rafa a doofus.

Yet if we were still challenging for the title he would be a genius.