kuyt

[Shaggy]

I think you misunderstand my point. I think Rooney has the defensive qualities I talk of and no one would be upset if we were to bring in a player like him (obviously in this case we are probably looking for a wide player rather than second striker).

The thing is it is about getting a balanced team, part of that is limiting the way opponents attack you and the bast way is to stop it at source with your forwards. It also means that the possession swap tends to happen in more dangerous areas for the opposition. On the other hand you can't afford to have anyone in your front four who won't consistently chip in with goals. However neither aspect should be over looked IMO and Walcott is an option which merely shifts the area that is the problem rather than representing a complete solution at this stage of his career.

If he was available at the price Arsenal got him for (i.e. £6m up front rising to ~£11m) then it would be great business, as it is it would be in my opinion a miss step.

I honestly don’t know what you’re getting at.

Rooney has the defensive qualities, yes. So does Torres. Torres is similar to Rush with his work ethic and defending from the front.

Why would you overlook Walcott in favour of a player with specific “defensive awareness” (like Kuyt!) in the right wing position in a 4-2-3-1? Walcott is no Yakubu. Benitez would ensure someone like Walcott did his share of closing down and harrying – something, in fact, Walcott did extremely well in his cameo in the San Siro the other night. Defending is very much a secondary concern for a player in this position in this formation. As I said, there are already seven others specifically in the team to defend (supplementing the 'defensively aware' Torres) so, while I’m not implying we can shove any old lazy arse in that position, whether or not they have “defensive awareness” would not be of remote concern to me. Walcott would be a tremendous purchase, both in terms of the present and the future.

All that said, there’s more chance of LFC signing me than Walcott.

[dww]

I honestly don’t know what you’re getting at.

Rooney has the defensive qualities, yes. So does Torres. Torres is similar to Rush with his work ethic and defending from the front.

Why would you overlook Walcott in favour of a player with specific “defensive awareness” (like Kuyt!) in the right wing position in a 4-2-3-1? Walcott is no Yakubu. Benitez would ensure someone like Walcott did his share of closing down and harrying – something, in fact, Walcott did extremely well in his cameo in the San Siro the other night. Defending is very much a secondary concern for a player in this position in this formation. As I said, there are already seven others specifically in the team to defend (supplementing the 'defensively aware' Torres) so, while I’m not implying we can shove any old lazy arse in that position, whether or not they have “defensive awareness” would not be of remote concern to me. Walcott would be a tremendous purchase, both in terms of the present and the future.

All that said, there’s more chance of LFC signing me than Walcott.

It's more about positioning than work rate. It may have been a poor choice of term to use defensively awareness to label it but a huge part of the difference I have seen this season between United and us this season is that they stop opposition attacks as they emerge from the oppositions 18 yard box and turn them into a dangerous attack for themselves. Part of this is the fact their players have the ability to damage the opposition and I'm not campaigning for us to bring in Kevin Kilban or anything. The point is that they take positions and work hard at making the oppositions job of getting at the defense/midfield hard.

It is this form of 'defending from the front' which starts attacks that I was refering to. Torres does a fine job but you need to have more than one player doing it IMO. It how you work as a unit and IMO in general this season it has been one of the areas Walcott has failed in in wide positions (i accept he was very good in his cameo against Milan). I have said that I suspect he will develop into the sort of player we need but he isn't it now and we need to buy people in the summer who are fully formed and will slot into our formation.

I think the fact Walcott has put in two very goo halves of football and has a lot of potential has made people over look some of his more frequent piss poor performances this season. He like Babel has all the qualities but hasn't yet learned to make best use of them, like Babel he seems to be learning. Are we good enough to support two player on that development curve at the minute? I don't believe we are.

I also think we lack leadership at times in the attacking areas. I want someone with an old head who has won things and has the mental toughness to pull us through tough matches in the league.

Obviously the first concern is a player who creates and can score but overlooking the other requirements will result in another year of development in my opinion.

[DeeTheDog]

How comes three good performances on the trot wipes September-February's sorry slate completely clean in some people's eyes?

Imagine if Crouch had played every week and played so poorly for so long! He'd need 200 consecutive good performances and about 150 goals before people were so forgiving.

Simple, that's in the past, we are not 'wiping the slate clean' we are focusing on the now. For whatever reasons and by his own admission, he did not have a good season; however, as I mentioned, we are playing some of the nicest football I have seen us play in quite some time (hell even Stevie is smiling), Kuyt has been a part of that. Why change now, what's not broken, when many have looked to Benetiz to have consistency of selection and formation?

To bring back Crouch would involve a change of formation and dropping one of central midfielders and going with a 4-4-2. With central midfield being easily our strongest position surely, it makes sense to accommodate a team and formation which can bring the best of these players, we may have found that and Kuyt is currently a vital part of that, regardless of his earlier poor form.

[Shaggy]

I think the fact Walcott has put in two very goo halves of football and has a lot of potential has made people over look some of his more frequent piss poor performances this season. He like Babel has all the qualities but hasn't yet learned to make best use of them, like Babel he seems to be learning. Are we good enough to support two player on that development curve at the minute? I don't believe we are.

But Babel is way ahead of Walcott on the development curve and will be much closer to being the finished article next term. It's not like we'd be carrying two out and out novices in the wide areas.

The point is that they take positions and work hard at making the oppositions job of getting at the defense/midfield hard.

I thought Walcott did this brilliantly the other night.

I also think we lack leadership at times in the attacking areas. I want someone with an old head who has won things and has the mental toughness to pull us through tough matches in the league.

Gerrard is our attacking leader and Torres is a leader too. Both mentally tough, both captain material and both players more than capable of pulling us through when we need saving. Gerrard's won plenty of trophies. The current Arsenal team doesn't have anybody in attacking areas who've won things. Not one. You have to give these players their head and let them become the sort of successful leader you're referring to.

[Shaggy]

Simple, that's in the past, we are not 'wiping the slate clean' we are focusing on the now. For whatever reasons and by his own admission, he did not have a good season; however, as I mentioned, we are playing some of the nicest football I have seen us play in quite some time (hell even Stevie is smiling), Kuyt has been a part of that. Why change now, what's not broken, when many have looked to Benetiz to have consistency of selection and formation?

To bring back Crouch would involve a change of formation and dropping one of central midfielders and going with a 4-4-2. With central midfield being easily our strongest position surely, it makes sense to accommodate a team and formation which can bring the best of these players, we may have found that and Kuyt is currently a vital part of that, regardless of his earlier poor form.

Who said anything about 'bringing back Crouch'?

Yeah, but it's still three games. I'm not talking about tomorrow or Tuesday, I'm talking long-term. Kuyt has a lot of convincing to do. He's done well for three games but it doesn't mean he can't be improved upon. Our left backs have done very well for the last three games and we still need a new one of those as well.

[dww]

Gerrard is our attacking leader and Torres is a leader too. Both mentally tough, both captain material and both players more than capable of pulling us through when we need saving. Gerrard's won plenty of trophies. The current Arsenal team doesn't have anybody in attacking areas who've won things. Not one. You have to give these players their head and let them become the sort of successful leader you're referring to.

I know but Arsenal have been doing better in that area and it is their natural strength and we are building up our attacking elements. They also still haven't won anything yet. I see what you are saying about developing players as leaders but it takes time and if we want to challenge next year that isn't really a luxury we can afford is all I'm saying.

I actual meant specifically won a league. The mentality to me seems very different and something that at times we appear to have lacked. I'm not convinced that when off personal form Gerrard is a good leader of those around him.

I agree with you about Walcott's performance in Milan - I even said so in my post. And the point about him being behind Babel in the learning curve is really the nub of my point. He would need even more work to be what we need than we have expended and will still have to expend on Babel to make him a truly top class player.

[DeeTheDog]

Yeah, but it's still three games. I'm not talking about tomorrow or Tuesday, I'm talking long-term. Kuyt has a lot of convincing to do.

That's ironic as you are advocating replacing him with Walcott, who has yet convince at any level and you put forward a cameo at the end of Milan game against 500 year old defence as proof. The lad has plenty of promise yes but is far from a finished article.

His good form has lasted more than three games, more since being dropped by Holland. If he continues this form and the form he showed the previous season, I still believe he can play a vital role for the future.

Personally, I'd rather have one of the Villa boys, Young or Abonglahor (sp) before Walcott.

[Shaggy]

That's ironic as you are advocating replacing him with Walcott, who has yet convince at any level and you put forward a cameo at the end of Milan game against 500 year old defence as proof. The lad has plenty of promise yes but is far from a finished article.

You're putting words into my mouth with this "proof" bollocks. It was merely an example, not "proof".

And it isn't really ironic at all given that I'm talking long-term and somewhat fancifully advocating an 18 year old with masses of potential, rather than sticking with a 27 year old slugger who has been a ten million pound failure.

[DeeTheDog]

You're putting words into my mouth with this "proof" bollocks. It was merely an example, not "proof".

And it isn't really ironic at all given that I'm talking long-term and somewhat fancifully advocating an 18 year old with masses of potential, rather than sticking with a 27 year old slugger who has been a ten million pound failure.

You are rather spiky, why get aggressive? Can another not put forward their point without you getting aggressive? Why focus on words, I thought it was ironic coming so soon after your earlier posts.

Our 27 year old 'slugger' scored in the Champions' league final, scored a vital goal which may see us through to the quarters for a second consecutive year and is currently making a vital contribution to the team. You see him as a failure; I see him as an asset to our team irrespective to his earlier form and certainly would not constitute him as a failure. I know in the white heat of battle at the San Siro, I'd rather have the 'failure' than the '18 year old with masses of potential.'

Nonetheless, football has always been a game of opinions.

[Skillz]

I think his lack of 'skills' is more to do with the abysmal first touch, something that should be elementary for a footballer, rather than stepovers.

How comes three good performances on the trot wipes September-February's sorry slate completely clean in some people's eyes?

Imagine if Crouch had played every week and played so poorly for so long! He'd need 200 consecutive good performances and about 150 goals before people were so forgiving.

His 1st touch is very poor this year. He is capable of much better but he is playing better and getting assists. His assist for Torres 2nd was World Class.

[Skillz]

Gerrard is our attacking leader and Torres is a leader too. Both mentally tough, both captain material and both players more than capable of pulling us through when we need saving. Gerrard's won plenty of trophies. The current Arsenal team doesn't have anybody in attacking areas who've won things. Not one. You have to give these players their head and let them become the sort of successful leader you're referring to.

I don't think Torres is a leader and he knows it. He's a player.

Albeit a very, very good one.

[Nic83]

I agree with shaggy. Listen, Kuyt when on form is decent. Kuyt when off form is abysmal.

I don't think anymore really needs to be said. He will never be a top footballer and if we are striving for the title, top players are what we need.

He's not a poor footballer, just not good enough for a starting spot in a team challenging for the premiership title and if we can get 6-7 mil for him to put toward someone who is, we should take it and have one of our youngsters as 4th choice striker.

A lot of people are blinkered towards Kuyt as they like him and the effort he puts in.

[dww]

I don't think Torres is a leader and he knows it. He's a player.

Albeit a very, very good one.

I think that he and Gerrard are leaders by example but not necessarily great motivators in other ways or organisers of others.

[Nic83]

anyway I'm sick of Kuyt threads so just get behind him while he's here

[Shaggy]

You are rather spiky, why get aggressive? Can another not put forward their point without you getting aggressive? Why focus on words, I thought it was ironic coming so soon after your earlier posts.

Our 27 year old 'slugger' scored in the Champions' league final, scored a vital goal which may see us through to the quarters for a second consecutive year and is currently making a vital contribution to the team. You see him as a failure; I see him as an asset to our team irrespective to his earlier form and certainly would not constitute him as a failure. I know in the white heat of battle at the San Siro, I'd rather have the 'failure' than the '18 year old with masses of potential.'

Nonetheless, football has always been a game of opinions.

Dress it up however you like pal - he is a striker who has scored three league goals all season. Three. Despite starting the majority of games. And two of those were pens, the other he knew nothing about.

For a £10m striker, that represents abject failure.

Even he'd played the entire season in this position on the right - which he hasn't - he should still have scored a damn sight more than three league goals. He doesn't contribute enough, and no amount of "sumptuous crosses" will change that.

Our 27 year old 'slugger' scored in the Champions' league final.

...which was his first of the entire campaign - an irrelevant consolation goal in the 90th minute of the last game. One goal in more than ten games and he was the main striker throughout the campaign. Great!