If we could have turned 6 of 13 draws into wins...

[El Jefecito]

Which ever way it's dressed up, constantly disrupting the stability of any team will have a negative impact.

Whereas I saying brining in fitter players has a positive impact as was shown by our performance in the run-in to the season.

[Guest]

A settled side, with consistency and an established way of playing, will perform better.

When you chop and change it frequently, you disrupt the consistency and stability, which lessens your chances of success.

You'll argue that we dont play in red, next... :yawn:

It doesn't mean anything because the players play together behind closed doors applying the same patterns over and over again. It's just a media generated myth which you've surprisingly bought into.

Rotation is needed to keep players at tip top form throughout the year. It's also Rafa's policy to rotate less when he sees fit ... For example depending on the amount of competition we're still in at the close of the season.

[Craig_H]

Whereas I saying brining in fitter players has a positive impact as was shown by our performance in the run-in to the season.

By which point, our title 'challenge' (snigger) was a distant (and non existent) memory. What use was it?

[Craig_H]

It doesn't mean anything because the players play together behind closed doors applying the same patterns over and over again. It's just a media generated myth which you've surprisingly bought into.

Rotation is needed to keep players at tip top form throughout the year. It's also Rafa's policy to rotate less when he sees fit ... For example depending on the amount of competition we're still in at the close of the season.

So you DONT think keeping a settled side and system is more beneficial than chopping and changing every game?

Superb

[El Jefecito]

By which point, our title 'challenge' (snigger) was a distant (and non existent) memory. What use was it?

That wasn't the point. The point was you identified only the negatives with rotation. I've shown that there are indeed positives.

[Guest]

So you DONT think keeping a settled side and system is more beneficial than chopping and changing every game?

Superb

What's a settled side if the players are more or less of the same quality and are used to play together behind closed doors !?

What did you make or our wins against Fulham or Tottenham when he's rotated quite heavily !?

[El Jefecito]

So you DONT think keeping a settled side and system is more beneficial than chopping and changing every game?

Superb

So do you think that playing fitter players, in a formation suiting the opposition is a bad thing?

[Craig_H]

That wasn't the point. The point was you identified only the negatives with rotation. I've shown that there are indeed positives.

There are obviously positives, but the overriding objective is to make a serious title challenge and if obsessive and excessive rotation negates your ability to achieve your fundamental objective, then any positives are pretty much null and void.

[Craig_H]

What's a settled side if the players are more or less of the same quality and are used to play together behind closed doors !?

What did you make or our wins against Fulham or Tottenham when he's rotated quite heavily !?

That's where you have to choose the right games to rotate in. Spurs away wouldnt normally be one, but this season they've been on holidays since the Carling Cup final, so it wasnt a problem. Wouldnt happen most years.

And the players clearly arent of more or less the same quality.

[El Jefecito]

There are obviously positives, but the overriding objective is to make a serious title challenge and if obsessive and excessive rotation negates your ability to achieve your fundamental objective, then any positives are pretty much null and void.

You say it does, I say that blaming everything on rotation is an oversimplification.

[Craig_H]

So do you think that playing fitter players, in a formation suiting the opposition is a bad thing?

Strange question. Obviously fitter players are better than unfit ones, but if you're already out of the title race, i dont see what the big achievement is.

The fact is, good players will generally beat inferior opponents, if utilised properly. They dont help you win games unless they actually take part in them.

[Craig_H]

You say it does, I say that blaming everything on rotation is an oversimplification.

And i'd say it's hard enough as it is for us to make a title challenge or, if we're dreaming, actually WIN it, as it is...so bearing that in mind, adding to the size of the task by disrupting the stability of the side, is somewhat foolhardy.

You cant guarantee success, but surely giving yourself the best possible chance is a pre-requisite. Hampering your chances...well, isnt.

[Darkon]

Constant disruption of team rhythm !? Is it a new way of scientifically analysing football or do you watch Sky Sports too much ?

I would take the later, as it seems to be his evidence for the amount of rotation rafa has made as well...

We rotate, yes we do, but no more than Chelsea or man utd does. A lot of it comes down to the fact that our squad is not strong enough to have cover. Rotation IMO also helps to keep a strong squad, as it would otherwise be full of good backup players that are unhappy when never playing...

Even more fun is looking at the stats (this might be for you DJS, as opposed to your match commentary memory)...

Table 1.1 Top-10 teams in starting line-up changes-per-game in 2006/07
Rank Team Changes-per-game
1 Man United 3.19
2 Liverpool 3.19
3 Newcastle 2.84
4 Chelsea 2.73
5 Arsenal 2.62
6 Sheff United 2.51
7 Tottenham 2.49
8 West Ham 2.43
9 Charlton 2.41
10 Portsmouth 2.27


Looking at away and home stats:

Table 1.2 Ferguson versus Benitez Home and Away rotation in 2006/07

Changes-per-game Same 5 or more 2 or less
Ferguson Home-toHome 4.00 0 8 3
Away-toAway 2.61 3 4 10

Benitez Home-to-Home 3.11 0 4 7
Away-to-Away 3.06 0 3 10


This sort of means that Rafa rotates no more on the avg. than Fergie does, but he however makes more changes away from home...

Don't believe in this whole rotation myth... A good read is Tomkins article at the start of the season, where he analysis last season and shows that rafa, fergie and mourinho rotates the same amount...http://www.liverpoolfc.tv/news/drill...70808-1304.htm

[El Jefecito]

Strange question. Obviously fitter players are better than unfit ones, but if you're already out of the title race, i dont see what the big achievement is.

The fact is, good players will generally beat inferior opponents, if utilised properly. They dont help you win games unless they actually take part in them.

So you aren't all against rotation then?

[Craig_H]

So you aren't all against rotation then?

Certainly not. As i've said, done properly (and not obscenely excessively), rotation is not only a good thing, but it's crucial.

My gripe is with how excessively rafa rotates, sometimes it almost seems like he's just doing it to be overly clever and stop people second guessing him - Torres in the Carling Cup at Reading, for example.

If he generally picked his best side, kept the spine for the majority of the time and changed maybe 2 players per game (for league matches), he'd take a big leap towards actually winning the PL title, IMO.