Try to be realistic about our chances...

[El Jefecito]

Do they get goals from them? Wes Brown got a few headers last year. Clichy never scores and Sagna got one , Evra is the same as is cole and Ferreira.

It's one thing Dossena and Degen flying down the wing, but they wont score much at all. That's the midfielders job. Rafa is struggling to find a good wide man. I think Barry was his idea of a goalscoring midfielder.

You are moving the goalposts. All I said was that the rest of the top 4 gets their width in the same fashion as we are hoping to this year.

I disagree on Barry. To me Barry = Alonso with the addition of ball retention.

[JPK]

Wing backs are designed to assist goals not score them from the wings.Dossena will put his fair share of crosses on Torres head this season,something Riise was getting worse and worse at.

None of the top teams play 3-5-2 so they dont have wing backs.
Arsenal fell away last year due to Hleb and Eboue not scoring as the season closed and an over reliance on Cesc and Adebayor to score all the goals.

The Mancs had most of there midfielders chipping in when it mattered.
Fullbacks should be in the team to defend primarily and get forward when they can and try assist and score. They pressure is on the midfielders to get goals and assists.

[El Jefecito]

Same back 5 as last year, Rosicky replaces Hleb, Song and Denilson will play beside Cesc. Vela, Nasri and Walcott will add pace and skill to the attack.
Arsenal will be very much up there again

Arsenal's problems since Viera left have been steel and mentality in the middle. I watched a few of their pre-season games and Denilson/Song/Daiby will not be able to perform to the same level as Flamini in that regard. And remember, even that wasn't good enough to win anything last year.

I'm also not convinced by Walcott, it'll be interesting to see if he makes it.

Considering that both ourselves and the Arse were after both Babel and Walcott, I'm pretty sure that the present and future will show that we made out best.

[El Jefecito]

None of the top teams play 3-5-2 so they dont have wing backs.
Arsenal fell away last year due to Hleb and Eboue not scoring as the season closed and an over reliance on Cesc and Adebayor to score all the goals.

The Mancs had most of there midfielders chipping in when it mattered.
Fullbacks should be in the team to defend primarily and get forward when they can and try assist and score. They pressure is on the midfielders to get goals and assists.

How old are you? That philosophy died out in the 80's.

We'd have 2 less european cups if our FBs played like you say.

[Woobus]

The Mancs had most of there midfielders chipping in when it mattered.
Fullbacks should be in the team to defend primarily and get forward when they can and try assist and score. They pressure is on the midfielders to get goals and assists.

Think Evra and Cole might disagree with you there.

[JPK]

Think Evra and Cole might disagree with you there.

They might get forward and create space but they did not score or assist very much. Had both in my fantasy football team at different times and they were only good for clean sheets. Put it this way, they were no Dani Alves

[JPK]

How old are you? That philosophy died out in the 80's.

We'd have 2 less european cups if our FBs played like you say.

Now you are moving the posts
A defender should defend first and attack when the chance arises.
Our fullbacks wont change much from the last few years imo.
I cant see Rafa give our defenders licence to roam.

[El Jefecito]

They might get forward and create space but they did not score or assist very much. Had both in my fantasy football team at different times and they were only good for clean sheets. Put it this way, they were no Dani Alves

Because

[drumroll]
There's only one Dani Alves, one Dani Alves
[/drumroll]

Like you say their main role was to create space, which to be fair Ronaldo, Rooney and Tevez made the most of. I'm sure if we used the NA Ice Hockey approach to measuring assists that you would have won the league

[El Jefecito]

Now you are moving the postsA defender should defend first and attack when the chance arises.
Our fullbacks wont change much from the last few years imo.
I cant see Rafa give our defenders licence to roam.

I have an excuse, I've drunk a pint and a half of rum, so have this double vision thing going on and TBH there are about 15 goal posts at the moment and I reserve the right to choose those which best suit my position

Seriously though, I really do think Rafa is going to tell Degen and Dossena to attack, attack, attack. The whole point of having 2 in the 4231 is that they can cover for the full backs when they get forward.

You've also seen how he has trained the wide forwards to drop back when the need arises. To me that just confirms that he has has set his full backs to "gung-ho" for those of you of a FM/CM bent.

[JPK]

I have an excuse, I've drunk a pint and a half of rum, so have this double vision thing going on and TBH there are about 15 goal posts at the moment and I reserve the right to choose those which best suit my position

Seriously though, I really do think Rafa is going to tell Degen and Dossena to attack, attack, attack. The whole point of having 2 in the 4231 is that they can cover for the full backs when they get forward.

You've also seen how he has trained the wide forwards to drop back when the need arises. To me that just confirms that he has has set his full backs to "gung-ho" for those of you of a FM/CM bent.

The fullbacks would not have to attack so much if the players in front of them were good enough to do there job. Anyway i'm off to the cot.

[Woobus]

They might get forward and create space but they did not score or assist very much. Had both in my fantasy football team at different times and they were only good for clean sheets. Put it this way, they were no Dani Alves

Exactly they get forward and create width, and stretch teams. They might not score or assist but give the other attacking players more room to attack. Well saying that I do think Dossena will provide a right few assists, havent seen enough of Deggen to know how he will be.
Think Babel and Kuyt will really flourish with attacking full backs as last season they had few options sometimes when they got the ball.

[El Jefecito]

The fullbacks would not have to attack so much if the players in front of them were good enough to do there job. Anyway i'm off to the cot.

But having them attack as much as possible, while knowing El Jefecito / Lucas have them covered is the best of both worlds IMO.

Sleep tight

[Woobus]

The fullbacks would not have to attack so much if the players in front of them were good enough to do there job. Anyway i'm off to the cot.

Surely it depends on the system how players are meant to attack and defend, if Rafa wants to set his team up to get width from fbs then I dont think the reason for it is the players in front arent good enough.

[Johnny]

Alot depends on how Keane plays,if he has a good year Liverpool will have a good year.

[blacky]

None of the top teams play 3-5-2 so they dont have wing backs.
Arsenal fell away last year due to Hleb and Eboue not scoring as the season closed and an over reliance on Cesc and Adebayor to score all the goals.

The Mancs had most of there midfielders chipping in when it mattered.
Fullbacks should be in the team to defend primarily and get forward when they can and try assist and score. They pressure is on the midfielders to get goals and assists.

United Goals 07/08

Ronaldo 42 (+1)
Tevez 19
Rooney 18
Saha 5
Nani 4
Ferdinand 3
Giggs 3
Carrick 2
Fletcher 2
Hargreaves 2
Pique 2
Scholes 2
Brown 1
Park 1
Vidic 1

To me it looks like most of united's goals came from their attack and ronaldo in particular. I think our goals last season were better distributed among the team with torres, sg, benni, babel, crouch, kuyt & voronin all chipping in.