Rafa Benitez issues Liverpool FC warning

[Red Chilli]

Pedant,left back..............

Nah, Jermaine plays on the right

[Craig_H]

But who`s to know,all your posturing about Benitez is grand with hindsight but when your trying to put together a squad with limited resources you have to buy and sell mid range players hoping that they`ll step up at our great club.If they don`t you replace them until you find that cheap diamond in the coalmine.IE.Skrytl,Agger and Bennayoun.You`d rather we buy one big player every season while leaving glaring holes in the squad.Since the Yanks arrived we started doing what you want.Only if the Arabs buy in will you get your wish.


Until then,It`s a slow process and most off us are prepared to wait because Rafa has not had a level playing field to play on.You on the other hand will throw your toys out of the pram every season while enjoying your infamy as Rafa`s biggest critic.IMHO you are the definition of a Wind Up Merchant.

Surely a manager is paid £3m a year TO generally know and get it right in most cases?

The glaring holes in the squad wouldnt be there if we'd kept the cheaper averages players, instead of buying the far more expensive average players.

The argument you're putting forward is one we've tried over the last couple of years and one which hasnt really got us challenging.

Rashid's argument, the one which advocates buying one top player instead of 3 average ones, is the one which has seen us sign players like Torres and Mascherano.

I'd rather see one Torres than a Pennant, Benayoun and Kuyt.

Each to their own but the '3 average players instead of one brilliant player' theory is what we've been using and it hasnt exactly proved too fruitful.

[Johnny]

Nah, Jermaine plays on the right

Boom-tish,very good.

[Woobus]

Nothing wrong with that, except that the players we've bought in the £5m-£10m bracket, with the odd exception, have been as average as the underperformers we sold for a fraction of the price.

Not to sure I could agree with that, Rafa has had a good record of making on the players he has brought in.

[Craig_H]

The point is this,at the time we signed Kuyt he had the potential to be much better than Baros who was pants.Telling the future is not one of Rafa`s strong points.We all thought Kuyt would be a great signing before he joined.

Ok, and here we have hit upon the problem. Rafa's judgement, in many cases, has been incredibly flawed. You're right when you say that it's not possible to tell the future, but it's certainly possible to play the percentage game, in that if you buy a player rated at £20m, the chances are more likely that he is going to be a very good player. It doesnt always work and it's especially true when you sign british players who are ridiculously over priced, but you certainly can affect the probability of a player succeeding.

As for your last sentance, i would have to pull you up on this. We didnt all think Kuyt would be a great signing. The fact is that some people on these forums HAVE said that certain players would flop when we signed them and that they'd have preferred a different signing.

One such example now is Riera. I hope he succeeds. Several people are already nailing their colours to the mast and saying he will flop. In Riera's case, you obviously dont know yet, but in the case of previous examples, mere forum posters HAVE actually foreseen the flop, where Rafa hasnt.

[Craig_H]

It's easy to forget just how awful Houllier's squad was. We had relatively few players who were comfortable on the ball, could hold it, and pick a pass - fundamental stuff. Rafa has gone about turning that personnel around.

As Rashid would say though, it was the majority of that awful squad which won the CL and the FA Cup.

Having turned it into his own squad, Rafa has since won nothing.

Does that not make a point of its own, somewhere along the line?

You cant argue with the facts mate.

[Woobus]

Rashid's argument, the one which advocates buying one top player instead of 3 average ones, is the one which has seen us sign players like Torres and Mascherano.

That argument is nonsense but, when he gets money he does spend it on great players. With the 100 million he has got in the 5 years he has spent it on Torres, Mascherano, Keane, Babel, Alonso and Reina. Those 6 players cost near the 100 million he was provided by the club. I dont understand how people expect him to spend money that he doesnt have. It would be great to have another 3 20million plus players but we dont have the cash.

[Johnny]

Rashid's argument, the one which advocates buying one top player instead of 3 average ones, is the one which has seen us sign players like Torres and Mascherano.

So we`re only talking about the last two yrs since the Yanks took over??

We couldn`t buy those type players when Moores was around.When Rafa is given
the money he does go after Rashids type targets.If DIC come in we`ll have an even better chance of signing the likes of Alves,Malouda(I know)Quaresma,Simao or Joaquin.All Rafa`s targets that we couldn`t afford.

[Craig_H]

Not to sure I could agree with that, Rafa has had a good record of making on the players he has brought in.

You wouldnt agree that Kuyt has generally been little better than Baros, for example?

Or Pennant/Benyoun being no better in terms of output, than Cisse?

In fact, the Cisse example works with Kuyt too. Both bought as strikers, both moved to right wing. In their respective last full seasons, Cisse scored 19 goals (and didnt play every game like Kuyt does), while Dirk scored 11.

In the league, Cisse scored 9 goals from 33 games. Dirk's return was 3 goals from 32 games.

Who's output is better?

Yet we sold Cisse for about half what we paid for Dirk.

[Johnny]

As Rashid would say though, it was the majority of that awful squad which won the CL and the FA Cup.

Having turned it into his own squad, Rafa has since won nothing.

Does that not make a point of its own, somewhere along the line?

You cant argue with the facts mate.

But you can.Football has moved on and Houllier didn`t have to compete against NEW Chelsea or the other 20 odd teams who have much more money to spend these days.

[Craig_H]

That argument is nonsense but, when he gets money he does spend it on great players. With the 100 million he has got in the 5 years he has spent it on Torres, Mascherano, Keane, Babel, Alonso and Reina. Those 6 players cost near the 100 million he was provided by the club. I dont understand how people expect him to spend money that he doesnt have. It would be great to have another 3 20million plus players but we dont have the cash.

Mate, when he buys Pennant, Kuyt and Benyoun for a combined £23m, how can you look at that and say he didnt have the £20m odd to buy a top class player?

If we'd kept Cisse, he'd be producing more in terms of attacking threat and goals, than Kuyt does, from the right wing. Benayoun plays half the games and Pennant never plays anymore.

Do you not think a £20m player would not be having an infinitely better impact on the team now than those 3 combined?

[Red Chilli]

Cisse was a limited footballer with a dog**** attitude.

Sorry, but getting rid of Cisse and replacing him with Kuyt was good business IMO. I'm not Kuyt's biggest fan but Kuyt is a team player, Cisse is not

Benayoun is a class player.

Pennant isn't quite good enough for LFC.

Say he didn't buy Kuyt Pennant and Benni and bought a top class winger (such as Arsenal thought they'd done when they bought Reyes). And say for example that winger flopped or got injured or didn't settle. A bit like a Morientes situation.

Would we be better off?

[Johnny]

Ok, and here we have hit upon the problem. Rafa's judgement, in many cases, has been incredibly flawed. You're right when you say that it's not possible to tell the future, but it's certainly possible to play the percentage game, in that if you buy a player rated at £20m, the chances are more likely that he is going to be a very good player. It doesnt always work and it's especially true when you sign british players who are ridiculously over priced, but you certainly can affect the probability of a player succeeding.

As for your last sentance, i would have to pull you up on this. We didnt all think Kuyt would be a great signing. The fact is that some people on these forums HAVE said that certain players would flop when we signed them and that they'd have preferred a different signing.

One such example now is Riera. I hope he succeeds. Several people are already nailing their colours to the mast and saying he will flop. In Riera's case, you obviously dont know yet, but in the case of previous examples, mere forum posters HAVE actually foreseen the flop, where Rafa hasnt.

Bully for them,it`s easy to be an armchair manager without the pressures Rafa is under.

[Craig_H]

So we`re only talking about the last two yrs since the Yanks took over??

We couldn`t buy those type players when Moores was around.When Rafa is given
the money he does go after Rashids type targets.If DIC come in we`ll have an even better chance of signing the likes of Alves,Malouda(I know)Quaresma,Simao or Joaquin.All Rafa`s targets that we couldn`t afford.

As i alluded to in other posts Johnny, Yossi, Dirk and Pennant cost £23m combined and their collective contributions are a fraction of that which a £20m player would have had, IMO.

That trio is the most obvious example that springs to mind.

But again, we're going round in circles here and it's the 'same argument over and over again' which is cropping up, and this annoys people, myself included.

The rafa backers will use the same 'excuses' and the critics will use the same 'mistakes'. Neither side will accept the other viewpoint and it'll go on and on and on forever, until the mods decide to ban the critics, even though they're behaving in the same way as the backers, albeit with a different point of view.

Nothing will be solved, so in the words of the legend that is Duncan Bannatyne, i'm out.

[Rashid]

But who`s to know,all your posturing about Benitez is grand with hindsight but when your trying to put together a squad with limited resources you have to buy and sell mid range players hoping that they`ll step up at our great club.If they don`t you replace them until you find that cheap diamond in the coalmine.IE.Skrytl,Agger and Bennayoun.You`d rather we buy one big player every season while leaving glaring holes in the squad.Since the Yanks arrived we started doing what you want.Only if the Arabs buy in will you get your wish.

Until then,It`s a slow process and most off us are prepared to wait because Rafa has not had a level playing field to play on.You on the other hand will throw your toys out of the pram every season while enjoying your infamy as Rafa`s biggest critic.IMHO you are the definition of a Wind Up Merchant.

I said the same thing at the time and was against the sale of Cisse, Pongolle and Baros.. along with the sales of many others. I only wanted them sold if we were going to get in top quality replacements - instead we got in the same or at times worse.

Anyway, my biggest gripe with Rafa is not just the huge amounts of money wasted, but with the style of play and quite literally the dire brand of football he advocates.