Rafa Discussion Thread

[Vermilion]

I wouldn't even bother humouring Rashid boys.

Nothing against him personally but his mind is made up there is no point in going round in circles.

He doesn't rate Rafa - We rate Rafa.

End of story, bring on the Mancs.

Ahhh, if only it was. The Dic thread used to be the first thing i saw when logging on to Est, now it's 'The Rafa Repetition Thread'.

[barnes10]

World's top youth players? Why aren't they in the team? Some of them are 19/20... the TOP ones are usually in the team if they are TOP.

Damien Plessis
David Ngog
Lucas Leiva
Krisztian Nemeth
Emiliano Insua
Daniel Pacheco

All either in the team regularly or close to it - i.e. matchday squads. Only arsenal regularly put teenagers in

we've invested in others like Barragan that didnt make it fast enough and needed development elsewhere. bottom line tho is we're investing in youth. Sissoko is another example of one that was bought young and moved on.

These are all considered top youth players. I include Lucas on the basis of his record in brazil and the national team whilst still in his teens. He's a top young talent that we've signed and plays in the first team since he came here.

[Skillz]

He sells on so many players because they weren't good enough to begin with, we are not Ajax, we aren't in it for profit - we are in it to win it.

I have already explained why Rafa has had to mix and match.

My point stands - on players he has bought and then sold we are in front. The reason he has had to spend 95M GBP to transform the squad is because he has had to endure a lot of ****e on the wage bill.

You think he is nonce in the transfer market, I think he has been quite brilliant. You want the title yesterday, I am prepared to wait for tomorrow while I can still see progress.

BTW I asked you to provide some back up a while ago.

Did I miss it or are you just bumping your gums again

[Scratch]

Sorry, it was from YNWA, and i have shamelessly stolen it...

This was the 34 man squad when Rafa took over at Liverpool FC

Keepers
Dudek
Kirkland
Luzi
Harrison

Defenders
Finnan
Carragher
Hyypia
Riise
Henchoz
Otsemobor
Whitbread
Traore
Vignal
Babbel
Warnock

Midfielders
Cheyrou
Diao
Biscan
Gerrard
Hamman
Kewell
Murphy
Le Tallec
Diarra
Partridge
Potter
Smicer
Welsh

Strikers
Baros
Diouf
Mellor
Owen
Pongolle
Cisse

In his 4 seasons so far, his approx net spend has been as follows (source LFChistory.net):

2004/05 - £16mill (if we had decided to keep Owen and lost him on a bosman next season then the budget would be reduced to £8mill, and we would have had an unhappy player on our hands)
2005/06 – £13mill
2006/07 - £14mill
2007/08 - £38mill
2008/09 - £18mill

So far, his total net spend since taking over is approx £99mill on transfer fees, and his current 34 man squad looks like this (3 original players from first season, the est brought in by Rafa):

Keepers
Reina
Cavalieri
Itandje
Martin

Defenders
Carragher
Hyypia
Degen
Arbeloa
Dossena
Aurelio
Insua
Darby
Skrtel
Agger
Hobbs

Midfielders
Gerrard
Mascherano
Alonso
Lucas
Pennant
Riera
Benayoun
Plessis
El Zhar
Spearing
Leto

Strikers
Torres
Keane
Babel
Kuyt
Ngog
Nemeth
Voronin
Pacheco

I have outlined the Net Spend figures many times. Look for it under search.

Its time people looked at the facts. He has spent **** loads, been here 4 years and the team can't string 4 passes together.

Despite their "****ness" Rafa has won more with the players Houllier had than with the ones he has spent £200m on.

We are a charitable bunch. No other big club would accept this type of football, this much money spent and nothing to show for it in 2 years.

You can't argue with facts.

Lets try this again, maybe Rash will actually answer it one day...

And i put it before you again...this is what Rafa has had to do to transform the squad, and his NET spend season by season...do you agree with the figures,a nd the fact that he has had to start basically from scratch, or could you honestly look at the squad he inherited and say "oh, we should have kept" etc??

[Woobus]

And i put it before you again...this is what Rafa has had to do to transform the squad, and his NET spend season by season...do you agree with the figures,a nd the fact that he has had to start basically from scratch, or could you honestly look at the squad he inherited and say "oh, we should have kept" etc??

He is a great man for not answering any questions that make his so called facts rubbish. The worst thing about it is he then throws them back out nearly everyday pretending they are really facts.

[barnes10]

it ALL boils down to us prioritising the CL. That is a club strategic decision for 3 reasons.

1. Money - we need it. Rafa's Net spend corresponds to what he earns here
2. Profile - to market the club and attrract top players
3. 1st 11 - we have the team to win any match but don't have the squad to win the title. the CL suits us

so the one time in rafa's tenure that rashid is pointing to when we were close to man u in the league was 05-06. Where we finished with 82 and them with 83.

So what happened that year? Well we were knocked out of the CL in Feb so had our second priority to go for which was the prem (won the FA too if you all remember). So we went on a cracking finish to that season and scored our highest ever points total. Utd finished 8 points off the title that year. only 3 better than our gap to it this season. Both before and since then we have been to at least the 2ng leg of the semi finals which, as you know, is in early may. The CL (and therefore the preparations to keep the first team fit and firing for it) occupies our whole season.

This tells us two things:

1 Rafa can get us to perform well in the premiership if thats his focus. Even accounting for his relatively poor squad. LFC with Rafa punches above its weight.
2. Man U have kicked on since then having added the likes of:
Michael Carrick (Tottenham - 14mill rising to 18.6), Tomasz Kuzcsak( West Brom ?), Carlos Tevez (unattached, 32 mill -), Anderson (FC Porto, £8m rising to £20.4m), O Hargreaves (Bayern Munich, £16.8m rising to £20.2m), Nani (Sporting Lisbon, £8m rising to £17.3m), Dimitar Berbatov (Tottenham, 30.75m)

Man U total spend: 139mill in 2 years. I don't know who they've sold but if rafa's net is 99mill over 5 years, i'd question who's spent most net rash.

Aslo interesting to note is that Arsenal, when they got to the CL final, finished with a whopping 67 points - 15 BEHIND Rafa's Liverpool. So it seems the same phenomenon affects them when it comes to involvement in the CL. They can't fight on both fronts either.

Rafa's the man

Rash, I want to know what you think of the ponits i've made in the above post. can you answer each of them please? This backs up my views but seems to go directly against yours. what's you're response?

[Skillz]

Lets try this again, maybe Rash will actually answer it one day...

And i put it before you again...this is what Rafa has had to do to transform the squad, and his NET spend season by season...do you agree with the figures,a nd the fact that he has had to start basically from scratch, or could you honestly look at the squad he inherited and say "oh, we should have kept" etc??

Of course we should of kept those players. Look at them all kicking arse at Stoke and Le Mans. That's without even considering the fact they are all 4 years older and our squad is young.

Rafa recently mentioned how the value of our squad is continually increasing. I suspect that is a bit too complex for Rashid to grasp but it makes perfect sense to me. I thought Murphy was a good player and Didi was excellant but how much could we sell them for now if we kept them?

Rash?

[El Jefecito]

Nett spend is BOLLOCKS. The correct measure is how often you get your first choice i.e how many times you get told NO. Alves, Vidic, Simao, etc etc

Instead we end up having to spunk money on the Pennants, Nunezs and play Kuyt on the RW because unlike Slur Alex if we ask for a world class player a la Alves, we're told NO.

SAF asked for 30m for Rooney. Yes!
SAF asked for 30m for Berbatov. Yes!
SAF asked for 30m for Tevez. Yes!
SAF asked for 20m for Carrick. Yes!
SAF asked for 20m for Hargreaves. Yes!
For Anderson, for Nani, for Ferdinand. etc etc Yes, Yes, Yes!

A couple of million for Alves and our right side would have been sorted for 5-10 years and we say NO. And today we continue to suffer the consequences, hence, Degen.
etc

[Skillz]

Nett spend is BOLLOCKS. The correct measure is how often you get your first choice i.e how many times you get told NO. Alves, Vidic, Simao, etc etc

Instead we end up having to spunk money on the Pennants, Nunezs and play Kuyt on the RW because unlike Slur Alex if we ask for a world class player a la Alves, we're told NO.

SAF asked for 30m for Rooney. Yes!
SAF asked for 30m for Berbatov. Yes!
SAF asked for 30m for Tevez. Yes!
SAF asked for 20m for Carrick. Yes!
SAF asked for 20m for Hargreaves. Yes!
For Anderson, for Nani, for Ferdinand. etc etc Yes, Yes, Yes!

A couple of million for Alves and our right side would have been sorted for 5-10 years and we say NO. And today we continue to suffer the consequences, hence, Degen.
etc

Yep and any board worth it's salt will be happy when the "fans" blame the manager. They just sack him and move on.

Rash wants a Football director at Anfield cos he see's this as the way forward. Fair enough, everyone is entitled to their own stupid opinion

[El Jefecito]

Yep and any board worth it's salt will be happy when the "fans" blame the manager. They just sack him and move on.

Rash wants a Football director at Anfield cos he see's this as the way forward. Fair enough, everyone is entitled to their own stupid opinion

To be fair he's not stupid but lacks depth the correct word is superficial

[Redlife]

Rijkaard won 2 La Liga's and 1 Champions League spending less money than Rafa has here in his 4 years there. I am not saying he is better but he isn't to be sniffed especially when you consider the shambles he inherited and the type of football he had them playing in the end.

I know Rijkaard spent less money, and as I said, La Liga isn't the Premiership. We have three big teams (and if Man City spend as they're promising, 4) to compete against. It's a completely different prospect. The Spanish league is Barca and Real, plus whichever other team is able to get it together for a limited period.


Rafa inherited a shambles too. Houllier's team won the the treble and finished second, but after that that team experienced a gigantic drop off in performance. His last season was painful. Awful players in key positions. We were going backwards fast. The players Rafa brought in transformed things, particularly in the CL: Alonso, Garcia, Reina.


I'm not saying Rijkaard's a bad manager. I just don't think he's the answer.

[barnes10]

Nett spend is BOLLOCKS. The correct measure is how often you get your first choice i.e how many times you get told NO. Alves, Vidic, Simao, etc etc

Instead we end up having to spunk money on the Pennants, Nunezs and play Kuyt on the RW because unlike Slur Alex if we ask for a world class player a la Alves, we're told NO.

SAF asked for 30m for Rooney. Yes!
SAF asked for 30m for Berbatov. Yes!
SAF asked for 30m for Tevez. Yes!
SAF asked for 20m for Carrick. Yes!
SAF asked for 20m for Hargreaves. Yes!
For Anderson, for Nani, for Ferdinand. etc etc Yes, Yes, Yes!

A couple of million for Alves and our right side would have been sorted for 5-10 years and we say NO. And today we continue to suffer the consequences, hence, Degen.
etc

without a doubt.

but surely it all boils down to having a pot of cash to spend and if our only option is to go for pennant and kuyt instead of one alvez then rafa must have the final say on where the money is spent surely.

bottom line tho is who gets fully backed in the transfer market and who constantly has to resort to 2nd or 3rd choice...

[friedk]

He has NET spent more than both of them these past 2 years and more than United since he joined - so I stopped reading here.

If you had carried on you might have learnt something, it was an excellent post.

[Johnny]

Seriously though.If we all put radish on ignore maybe he`ll **** off to 6CM and annoy them.

[Rashid]

Alternatively you could just do it yourself and stop trying to be a pied piper.