Rafa Discussion Thread

[dww]

I think it is time that people acknowledged that if this site is to remain an enjoyable place to discuss football we can let it degenerate into a debate about a single posters views on Rafa. Rashid doesn't have to answer every point put to him and even if he does he is unlikely to say something he hasn't already said. So can we let it drop and attempt to have a less confrontational conversation.

The issue really isn't about me. The problem is people are finding it difficult to accept that Rafa plays dull football, that he has spent a lot of money on a par with most big European teams, he hasn't won anything since building his "own" squad and finally in his 5th season it's time to deliver.

That's must be hard for those worshipping at the church of Rafa.

An element of the problem I would say is that people, including yourself, have different opinions and seem to find it hard to accept that there may be something other than clear cut black and white answers and that people are capable of having differing opinions to ourselves without being wrong.

[Rashid]

dww - I don't chase people around the forum asking them to answer me etc, I answer posts and debate where I want to debate. I accept there are people who cannot accept Rafa's failings - that is their issue. I am the opposite and maybe we all need to find a middle ground.

As Obama says we need change, so either the manager changes or we change the manager and that's my stance.

[Woobus]

dww - I don't chase people around the forum asking them to answer me etc, I answer posts and debate where I want to debate. I accept there are people who cannot accept Rafa's failings - that is their issue. I am the opposite and maybe we all need to find a middle ground.

As Obama says we need change, so either the manager changes or we change the manager and that's my stance.

Its ok not to reply but when you keep using facts that have been disproven then people get annoyed when you keep saying they are facts.

[barnes10]

Rashid, respond to the points made above or just be considered a WUM like any manc, chav and arse scum that come on here to wind up true reds.

Several posts have tried to have a reasoned debate with you but you just won't step up and discuss things instead just bleat on and on about the same negative sh1te. its because of this that you are disliked not your particular view.

you make me frustrated and angry when i read your constant bitching and i'm no longer going waste my time with you. i now totally understand now why you've been driven from other sites as were it up to me, you'd be kicked off here too. you'll just have to go on ignore which i've never done to anyone on any site before but you leave me with no choice. i don't expect you to cry about it of course but you should take a look at yourself as to why fellow reds - if you are actually one of us - would consider you nothing but a windup and want nothing to do with you. i guess thats because we must all be ******s right?

regards an old boys club. funny you say that. not quite an old boys club but lfc is definitately old school when reds discuss football. people talk of knowledgable fans that think before they speak on football matters. we're also supporters who can discuss and talk of ways to solve issues and mistakes of their managers, but we support them and give them as much understanding as we can. we never give them short shrift. its just not the liverpool way mate but you don't seem to know that. we pride ourselves on having followed the club for years , understand a bit about the game, not being retarded prawn sandwich brigades and, pertinent nowadays, on not being a bunch of champ manager geeks who apply the simplistic strategy that it takes to win a computer game to real life football.

anyway, shame but goodbye and good riddance.

[Assassin]

That's must be hard for those worshipping at the church of Rafa.

I think it is time that people acknowledged that if this site is to remain an enjoyable place to discuss football we can let it degenerate into a debate about a single posters views on Rafa. Rashid doesn't have to answer every point put to him and even if he does he is unlikely to say something he hasn't already said. So can we let it drop and attempt to have a less confrontational conversation.



An element of the problem I would say is that people, including yourself, have different opinions and seem to find it hard to accept that there may be something other than clear cut black and white answers and that people are capable of having differing opinions to ourselves without being wrong.

Read the posts, they all have bait in them. He reaps what he sows

[dww]

dww - I don't chase people around the forum asking them to answer me etc, I answer posts and debate where I want to debate. I accept there are people who cannot accept Rafa's failings - that is their issue. I am the opposite and maybe we all need to find a middle ground.

As Obama says we need change, so either the manager changes or we change the manager and that's my stance.

I wasn't saying you chased people around. I just think that the way you and those arguing with you are phrasing their arguments is leading to bickering rather than fruitful debate. I don't think I am the only one who thinks that both sides of this debate need to change how they are posting as it is becoming mind numbingly tedious.

[Pacman]

Rashid you have a reputation on every single Liverpool site for being an internet Cock - You've been banned from more sites than anyone for being a prick it's not about your opinion it's they way you put your point across. You are the LFC version of Dr Doom and only rear your ugly head when you want to make a negative comment.

[Rashid]

Why is it that the only posts you ignore are the ones that blow your bull**** 'facts' out of the water? Like the one I've quoted.

I have said this a 100 times now, I don't think he needed to add 34 new players to the squad and buy so much dross later to sell them on. He has wasted a lot of time intergrating players into the team that were not good enough to be here long term. I'd have kept Houllier's team a squad players and built on that, not obsessed about having my "own team".

So showing me tha players he has bought a justification for spending NET £25m a season and no title challenge just makes things worse and doesn't answer my issues.

[Rashid]

Rashid you have a reputation on every single Liverpool site for being an internet Cock - You've been banned from more sites than anyone for being a prick it's not about your opinion it's they way you put your point across. You are the LFC version of Dr Doom and only rear your ugly head when you want to make a negative comment.

My issue is that I refuse to accept the style of football Houllier and later Rafa have bought to this club - I never complained before these two came here.

[Assassin]

I have said this a 100 times now, I don't think he needed to add 34 new players to the squad and buy so much dross later to sell them on. He has wasted a lot of time intergrating players into the team that were not good enough to be here long term. I'd have kept Houllier's team a squad players and built on that, not obsessed about having my "own team".

So showing me tha players he has bought a justification for spending NET £25m a season and no title challenge just makes things worse and doesn't answer my issues.

This was directed at Sarb with no reply. So lets try with you


Nothing is more boring than the webspace you continue to fill up with your Vendetta and Agenda against one of the top managers in the world.

I am not a member of RCDNW Brigade before you start with your stereotyped answer. I see he makes mistakes, I make mistakes, most people make mistakes apart from you

Lets dig a little deeper.

What is your position within professional football?

Are you actually a Liverpool Supporter?

What professional footballing education do you have?

What is your agenda with Rafa?

Why do you believe your footballing knowledge is better than 99.9% of the footballing profession?

What is your Vendetta with Rafa?


If others have some questions for this self professed footaballing guru please feel free add to the list.

[barnes10]

I wasn't saying you chased people around. I just think that the way you and those arguing with you are phrasing their arguments is leading to bickering rather than fruitful debate. I don't think I am the only one who thinks that both sides of this debate need to change how they are posting as it is becoming mind numbingly tedious.

come on dww.

we try to reason with him but he never steps up. instead he just bleats. its easy and tempting for us all to degenerate to his level but when we try to bing the standard of debate up to where it should be, he just ignores and then 24hrs later starts his bleating.

by doing this, he's bringing down the level of debate. if he'd respond to the sensible posts then it wouldnt be a problem and occasionally you could just tell us to stop the bickering.

but when we stop it, he ignores that and then starts it again. he doesnt want to debate properly, he just wants to lower the tone.

[Scratch]

I have said this a 100 times now, I don't think he needed to add 34 new players to the squad and buy so much dross later to sell them on. He has wasted a lot of time intergrating players into the team that were not good enough to be here long term. I'd have kept Houllier's team a squad players and built on that, not obsessed about having my "own team".

So showing me tha players he has bought a justification for spending NET £25m a season and no title challenge just makes things worse and doesn't answer my issues.

Keepers
Dudek
Kirkland
Luzi
Harrison

Defenders
Finnan
Carragher
Hyypia
Riise
Henchoz
Otsemobor
Whitbread
Traore
Vignal
Babbel
Warnock

Midfielders
Cheyrou
Diao
Biscan
Gerrard
Hamman
Kewell
Murphy
Le Tallec
Diarra
Partridge
Potter
Smicer
Welsh

Strikers
Baros
Diouf
Mellor
Owen
Pongolle
Cisse

Ok, so here is the 30 odd players at the squad that Rafa inherited...you're saying you would have kept most of them?? And just added to it?

But then look at what we have now, and tell me that it's no better??

Keepers
Reina
Cavalieri
Itandje
Martin

Defenders
Carragher
Hyypia
Degen
Arbeloa
Dossena
Aurelio
Insua
Darby
Skrtel
Agger
Hobbs

Midfielders
Gerrard
Mascherano
Alonso
Lucas
Pennant
Riera
Benayoun
Plessis
El Zhar
Spearing
Leto

Strikers
Torres
Keane
Babel
Kuyt
Ngog
Nemeth
Voronin
Pacheco

Players like Finnan, Hammann, Babbel, Henchoz, Baros...all shipped out as they were either past their sell-by date or just not good enough...so you would you have kept then??

[bobbyfallon]

where can i go to find out the total spending including net spend of liverpool arsenal mancs and chelsea in the last five years?? i have time to look it up and paste it here if i am pushed in the right direction

[dww]

come on dww.

we try to reason with him but he never steps up. instead he just bleats. its easy and tempting for us all to degenerate to his level but when we try to bing the standard of debate up to where it should be, he just ignores and then 24hrs later starts his bleating.

by doing this, he's bringing down the level of debate. if he'd respond to the sensible posts then it wouldnt be a problem and occasionally you could just tell us to stop the bickering.

but when we stop it, he ignores that and then starts it again. he doesnt want to debate properly, he just wants to lower the tone.

I just don't see why people can't just ignore him. Why do people feel the need to try and prove him, in particular, wrong? There are many various and different opinions about Rafa's flaws and good points which get lost because people want Rashid to answer their arguments. Why should everyone only feel the need to respond to his provocative posts and not contribute positively to the discussion. Why does anyone care if Rashid agrees with them or not?

There have been some sensible posts which Rashid has responded too but both sides simply interpret the facts in mutually exclusive fashions.

To get back on topic:

Is Rafa attempting to refine the way we are playing by moving to a 4-4-2 in order to appease Gerrard and could this be seen as the type of change that many people have been calling for last season - i.e. a shift to a more attacking formation which is yet to click.

Is it possible that the criticism of his style is entirely misplaced as he has already started to alter the way we play but we are currently seeing teething problems.

Also has anyone detected any noticeable influence from Sammy Lee? He certainly seems to talk to Rafa more during matches that previous coaches.

[Pacman]

It's a sad state of affairs when you have to ignore posters.