My mind is changed, how about yours....

[spider-neil]

This kind of thread makes me laugh. He's been a donkey for well over a year and we could achieved so much more had he not been in the team. All of a sudden he has half a dozen decent (not amazing) games and everyone think's he's priceless!!!

The words fair and weather have never been more appropriate.

are you 'THE' carheez from koptalk?
not a dig a genuine question.

[Tee]

I agree that we should ideally have better players in every position where possible, but lets look at the reality of the situation.

Kuyt is playing as a RW not a CF so should be judged accordingly. He has scored more goals than anyone playing on the LW or LM and his work rate and tracking back has made Arbeloa's life so much easier.

Maybe last season I did not appreciate or see Kuyt from this point of view, but now I have please don't offend me or anyone else by calling us fair weather fans.

Rafa thinks the world of Kuyt and ultimately Kuyt it seems is paying him back with some sterling performances and seems to be an integral part of teh way Rafa wants this Liverpool team to perform - if he keeps it up we are going to have a very good season.

[Reece]

Not a dig Carheex, just wondering who you think we could realistically get to play Alonso's position who is better? And please don't say Barry

[spider-neil]

I remember on koptalk carheez taking a lot of stick for saying 2001 was a purple patch for heskey and he would return to normal, and that's pretty much what happened.

my opinion of kuyt is simply every player in a forward position should be looking at scoring at least 10 league goals a season if the team is to have any aspirations of the league. if a player isn't delivering that return then they are being carriered by the ones that do and hard work and endevour shouldn't paper over that glaring crack.

who's to say if babel wasn't given a run in kuyt position he wouldn't deliver more in regards to goals and assists (but not workrate obviously)?

[dww]

Didn't Kuyt get 10 goals last year (admittedly in all competitions)?

The problem with the Babel/Kuyt debate is that it is purely hypothetical but I really think that we have seen enough of Babel starting now to say that in general he wastes his talent from the off. I suspect that if he played he might get as many if not more direct assists/goals as Kuyt but that we would do worse as a team.

Currently the Kuyt/Riera wing combination is creating enough room and chances to allow Xabi to shine which I didn't think it would. While people might think that the current quality of Kuyt's play is a blip I really don't see any argument for dropping him while he is doing so well.

Babel should look at Kuyt and see what he needs to add to his game. If you allied Kuyt's intelligence and tactical nouse to Babel's pace and trickery then you may well not need the prodigious work ethic but you certainly can't expect to be a top player without either.

[rage]

Didn't Kuyt get 10 goals last year (admittedly in all competitions)?

The problem with the Babel/Kuyt debate is that it is purely hypothetical but I really think that we have seen enough of Babel starting now to say that in general he wastes his talent from the off. I suspect that if he played he might get as many if not more direct assists/goals as Kuyt but that we would do worse as a team.

Currently the Kuyt/Riera wing combination is creating enough room and chances to allow Xabi to shine which I didn't think it would. While people might think that the current quality of Kuyt's play is a blip I really don't see any argument for dropping him while he is doing so well.

Babel should look at Kuyt and see what he needs to add to his game. If you allied Kuyt's intelligence and tactical nouse to Babel's pace and trickery then you may well not need the prodigious work ethic but you certainly can't expect to be a top player without either.

so do you think we blew 11 million on babel? if the lad doesn't play he won't get a chance to develop.

kuyt and riera can't play all the time but i really do think babel could get himself a game, have a man of the match performance and still be replaced by kuyt next week.

kuyt is rafa's favourite, even when playing **** he gets picked. the same standards are not applied to other players.

as for selling him, rafa's likely to take him with him if/when he goes, before then there's no way it'll happen.

[Parm]

I'd tell them to feck off, but if they were to come back with a higher offer theb we could talk. If not then feck off. Somehow Dirk is morphing into a solid hardworking and ever running player for us. Ok his goal scoring record and touch can be poor, but he is always making runs and movements that open up space for other team mates to exploit. There sometimes has to be that sort of player for the team, that just keeps on going and going and for that is Dirk.

His energy levels and commitment are right up there with Essien (I'm not saying he is as good a player or better, but Essien is one guy as Chelski who is just a phenomenal athelete and never seems to tire and is always happy to play out ofposition and sacrifice himself so that the team can progress/win.

[dww]

so do you think we blew 11 million on babel? if the lad doesn't play he won't get a chance to develop.

kuyt and riera can't play all the time but i really do think babel could get himself a game, have a man of the match performance and still be replaced by kuyt next week.

kuyt is rafa's favourite, even when playing **** he gets picked. the same standards are not applied to other players.

as for selling him, rafa's likely to take him with him if/when he goes, before then there's no way it'll happen.

He has to prove himself when he gets a chance. Like last season he looks an excellent sub but given a full game like against Marseille he is anonymous. I still think he has it in him to develop - parts of his game have come on a lot.

He was always a gamble and one that Wenger passed on at that. It hasn't paid off fully but actually a game changing substitute with great pace is a very handy thing to have in the squad.

I agree that Kuyt has kept his place when arguably he should have lost it but I think part of that is that he always does certain things that Rafa demands even when he is off form. That isn't true of a lot of our players on a consistent basis. I think you can see that when players start to disobey/disappoint him Rafa tends to be less happy playing them I think to varying degrees this has happened with Crouch, Pennant, Garcia and last season Alonso too. In a way I now think that Kuyt embodies Rafa on the pitch in a way that Alonso used to do.

[BG1973]

I know what you're saying mate but Torres missed just as good a chance in that game for his hat trick and afterwards the only thing anyone mentions is his two goals. Kuyt scored the winner and people mention the earlier miss just as much as his goal.

I'm not saying he's in the class of Torres, just that people tend to dwell more on negative aspects of Kuyt's performances more than they do with other players.

Dirk's a real confusing one. He can be good at times and pretty poor at others. His workrate and spirit though can never be denied. How important is that though? Well I would say very important indeed. It must rub off on the other players, it must help to bring more out of the team. As often stated you need leaders on the pitch, players who do not shirk responsibilty. You could never accuse Dirk of a shirk.

And this season we really do look like a team. A group who fight hard for each other. As Hansen said he's never seen us look more of team than on Sunday at City (not sure what he thought of Istanbul then).

I think the proof will be in whether Dirk is still in the first 11 come end of season. Babel is waiting in the wings, he needs to improve defensively. If he gets to a level Rafa accepts then I'm not sure Dirk will get many chances. Dirk does a lot stop the opposition and his runs free space for our other forwards but Babel can do that and he can hurt teams far more with his pace and technical ability.

It's not a bad situation for us to be in.

[wiw]

Babel came on the right wing against PSV don't forget, which given Riera's form, i'm sure it's something he's considering. Babel in for Kuyt is what most people seem to want so it may happen.

On the Kuyt subject, I never needed my mind changing

[wiw]

He has to prove himself when he gets a chance. Like last season he looks an excellent sub but given a full game like against Marseille he is anonymous. I still think he has it in him to develop - parts of his game have come on a lot.

He was always a gamble and one that Wenger passed on at that. It hasn't paid off fully but actually a game changing substitute with great pace is a very handy thing to have in the squad.

I agree that Kuyt has kept his place when arguably he should have lost it but I think part of that is that he always does certain things that Rafa demands even when he is off form. That isn't true of a lot of our players on a consistent basis. I think you can see that when players start to disobey/disappoint him Rafa tends to be less happy playing them I think to varying degrees this has happened with Crouch, Pennant, Garcia and last season Alonso too. In a way I now think that Kuyt embodies Rafa on the pitch in a way that Alonso used to do.

I think Rafa is of the opinion that as long as you are where he wants you to be on the pitch, working hard and trying to do the things he asked of you, you will be in with a good shout of staying in the team. By that I mean in terms of decision making as well.. being so close to him on the sidelines, he seems to be more irritated by something like the wrong pass, rather than a mis-control or whatever.

[razortoddy]

Over the years I was a fan of Whelan and nobody else seemed to appreciate what he brought to the team. I have always been a fan of Kuyt and if anybody would just stop following the ball and watch for what he does off it , you will then really appreciate what he brings to the team. His intelligent running off the ball is magical.. True he has games where his touch lets him down, true his goal scoring record can be average, however he plays in a similar role to Callaghan(never a prolific goal scorer). I wouldn't swop him for anybody else. His work allows him to be a defender ,mid-fielder and forward.We almost have 12 men. If ever there was a duracell-bunny footballer, Dirk epitomises the description. I think he is an essential team member.He always does his shift. er that's it. I'll get my coat

[spider-neil]

Didn't Kuyt get 10 goals last year (admittedly in all competitions)?

The problem with the Babel/Kuyt debate is that it is purely hypothetical but I really think that we have seen enough of Babel starting now to say that in general he wastes his talent from the off. I suspect that if he played he might get as many if not more direct assists/goals as Kuyt but that we would do worse as a team.

Currently the Kuyt/Riera wing combination is creating enough room and chances to allow Xabi to shine which I didn't think it would. While people might think that the current quality of Kuyt's play is a blip I really don't see any argument for dropping him while he is doing so well.

Babel should look at Kuyt and see what he needs to add to his game. If you allied Kuyt's intelligence and tactical nouse to Babel's pace and trickery then you may well not need the prodigious work ethic but you certainly can't expect to be a top player without either.

I'm saying 10 plus goals in the league, which is a fair return for someone in a forward position, as I said earlier if you get less then you are pretty much putting pressure on the other forward players to get more than 10 plus league goals a season.

[spider-neil]

the bottom line is it isn't too much to ask of tireless running and a decent league return. look at tevez for the mancs.

[Reece]

Over the years I was a fan of Whelan and nobody else seemed to appreciate what he brought to the team. I have always been a fan of Kuyt and if anybody would just stop following the ball and watch for what he does off it , you will then really appreciate what he brings to the team. His intelligent running off the ball is magical.. True he has games where his touch lets him down, true his goal scoring record can be average, however he plays in a similar role to Callaghan(never a prolific goal scorer). I wouldn't swop him for anybody else. His work allows him to be a defender ,mid-fielder and forward.We almost have 12 men. If ever there was a duracell-bunny footballer, Dirk epitomises the description. I think he is an essential team member.He always does his shift. er that's it. I'll get my coat

No need, good post