Kids ?

[Craig_H]

The Carling cup is a nothing competition mate. It's a glorified reserve league IMO. I don't watch it because it's ****e.

When you dont watch something that you choose to express an opinion on, you then quite literally dont know what you're talking about. I'd be willing to bet you've probably never seen any of these kids that you're dismissing so easily.

What were you doing on the afternoon of Sunday 25 February 2001?

[El Jefecito]

Fredo:

1 - i didnt say having a weaker first team is any 'use'.
2 - the arsenal kids have comfortably thumped a full strength Wigan side who are taking it seriously. You didnt watch the game so you cant really make that 'seriously' comment. I dont think many other kids would've have done the same, so on that basis, yes it looks a bit special.
3 - people like Ramsey and Wilshere are 17 and 16. Vela is 19. They're hardly going to be in the 1st team every week, but they've all had their toes dipped in and are progressing.

I'm saying no more to you, it's like trying to dry a puddle in the rain.



You probably know more about 'puffs' than i do Let's see how many kids we field tomorrow night, and see how much we're trying to bring them through. I hope several get a run out.

But no, i didnt run out of anything, you're just not worth the time, effort or inevitable pointless arguments. I've got some dusting that needs doing and is a more worthwhile use of my time. Have a good night. And if you get some spare time, watch a few of these kids play - then you'll be able to voice an INFORMED opinion

IMO The crux of the matter is that Wenger creates teams that in the right circumstances play beautiful football and on their day would beat anyone.

I think Fredo's point is that over the course of season the "right circumstances" don't occur often enough for that to be enough to win things. That needs mentality, determination, leadership, adaptability, work rate, etc etc. All things that Wenger doesn't seem to be able to incorporate into a team.

[Guest]

Fredo:

1 - i didnt say having a weaker first team is any 'use'.
2 - the arsenal kids have comfortably thumped a full strength Wigan side who are taking it seriously. You didnt watch the game so you cant really make that 'seriously' comment. I dont think many other kids would've have done the same, so on that basis, yes it looks a bit special.
3 - people like Ramsey and Wilshere are 17 and 16. Vela is 19. They're hardly going to be in the 1st team every week, but they've all had their toes dipped in and are progressing.

I'm saying no more to you, it's like trying to dry a puddle in the rain.



You probably know more about 'puffs' than i do Let's see how many kids we field tomorrow night, and see how much we're trying to bring them through. I hope several get a run out.

But no, i didnt run out of anything, you're just not worth the time, effort or inevitable pointless arguments. I've got some dusting that needs doing and is a more worthwhile use of my time. Have a good night. And if you get some spare time, watch a few of these kids play - then you'll be able to voice an INFORMED opinion

Yeah I should agree with you then. It's just that it pisses off some people (like you) because I disagree and you make it out as if I disagree with everybody just for the sake of it.

I can see myself disagreeing with the same posters time and again. So, yes it's like pissing in the wind and getting embroiled in pointless arguments.

[El Jefecito]

The thing everyone is missing about Arsenal is that they don't have enough high quality older players. Last year their midfield wasn't strong enough and then they lose Flamini, Hleb and Silva and replace them with Nasri?

Wenger has this huge ego and wants to be the manager who "discovers" all these amazing young talents and turns them into superstars, but football has changed over the past few years, the whole "you don't win anything with kids" thing is now true, you need a blend of young kids and older experienced players who stay calm when the pressure builds at the end of the season. Arsenal don't have any calm heads, remember Gallas towards the end of the season? as a captain he was a disgrace.

If Arsenal had Gerrard and Carragher, IMO they would be 10 times the team they are now. Not just because of the ability they bring as 2 individual players but because of their attitude and mentality - Arsenals youngsters need players like that to learn from.

Arsenal with SG and Carra is indeed a scary thought.

[Craig_H]

IMO The crux of the matter is that Wenger creates teams that in the right circumstances play beautiful football and on their day would beat anyone.

I think Fredo's point is that over the course of season the "right circumstances" don't occur often enough for that to be enough to win things. That needs mentality, determination, leadership, adaptability, work rate, etc etc. All things that Wenger doesn't seem to be able to incorporate into a team.

No arguments there El Jef.

I think it's a different point entirely though and gets away from the one i was making. We're not in a position where we can afford to spend money left right and centre and if the academy is costing what it is, we could do with a return of one player a year making the first team squad and gradually becoming something of a regular. In order to do that though, they need to be given a chance before their development is stunted. There's only so far a kid can go just playing reserve or youth team games.

I hope a few of them get a chance at Spurs tomorrow.

[Guest]

IMO The crux of the matter is that Wenger creates teams that in the right circumstances play beautiful football and on their day would beat anyone.

I think Fredo's point is that over the course of season the "right circumstances" don't occur often enough for that to be enough to win things. That needs mentality, determination, leadership, adaptability, work rate, etc etc. All things that Wenger doesn't seem to be able to incorporate into a team.

Wenger is an idealist. He's a terrific coach no doubt about that but he's not flawless. He's got his philosophy which is about developing and nurturing youngsters and saving his club millions in doing so by having a competitive team.

But ask Arsenal's supporters and not all of them are happy with his methods. They haven't won anything since Bergkamp and Henry, which were big money buys. They've been close last year (not that close though) but still, these 'youngsters' have been blooded out in their first team for a long long time and the average age is 25 or 26, hardly much lower than ours.

It's good to have a couple of really talented youngsters but ultimately they'll be judged on their collective success.

[El Jefecito]

No arguments there El Jef.

I think it's a different point entirely though and gets away from the one i was making. We're not in a position where we can afford to spend money left right and centre and if the academy is costing what it is, we could do with a return of one player a year making the first team squad and gradually becoming something of a regular. In order to do that though, they need to be given a chance before their development is stunted. There's only so far a kid can go just playing reserve or youth team games.

I hope a few of them get a chance at Spurs tomorrow.

Hmmm, I'm not convinced that is the argument you started with, but hey ho, if that's where we are then I agree 150%. Ablett has a really tough job on his hands and that is why Rafa has been screaming for the reserves to be in the lower leagues.

Ablett is trying though, he has scheduled something like 25 friendly games this season just so he can get his massive squad games. But something more systematic needs to happen because you're right players are plateauing at the reserves level.

I'd give Ablett another year to work out other ways to keep the conveyor belt going, he seems pretty switched on, he's already expanded our pre-season program, added additional friendlies, signed us up for overseas tours. So he knows about the problem and is actively trying to address it. Maybe next year, he'll have us in two reserve leagues, maybe we take a serious look at how we do loans so they are something other than the hit and miss than they are at the moment.

[El Jefecito]

Wenger is an idealist. He's a terrific coach no doubt about that but he's not flawless. He's got his philosophy which is about developing and nurturing youngsters and saving his club millions in doing so by having a competitive team.

But ask Arsenal's supporters and not all of them are happy with his methods. They haven't won anything since Bergkamp and Henry, which were big money buys. They've been close last year (not that close though) but still, these 'youngsters' have been blooded out in their first team for a long long time and the average age is 25 or 26, hardly much lower than ours.

It's good to have a couple of really talented youngsters but ultimately they'll be judged on their collective success.

I know a lot of Arsenal supporters and I've hit the forums and I tell you, they are PISSED. They call Arsenal, Arsene FC and a "Vanity Project" for exactly the reasons that you and Brian Reade mentioned. The beautiful football stuff wore out 3 years ago, now they just want to win.

[Guest]

I know a lot of Arsenal supporters and I've hit the forums and I tell you, they are PISSED. They call Arsenal, Arsene FC and a "Vanity Project" for exactly the reasons that you and Brian Reade mentioned. The beautiful football stuff wore out 3 years ago, now they just want to win.

You can hear the groans when they play at the Emirates when they're over elaborating their pretty patterns. I also think they'll lose their best players over time ... Adebayor nearly went last year, there are rumors about Fabregas and they lost one of their best players in Hleb last year.

If you look at the history book, only Fergie can claim to have a team of really outstanding youngsters and who actually won the league and more, aptly aided by the likes of Cantona and Sheringham at the time.

Wenger has still got to make it work and it's also not as if they haven't invested a lot on youngsters. They've probably spent more than us on their kids. So it's hardly a surprise if they're doing well in the Carling cups ... up until the semi finals.

[ronanm]

These young 'kids' wont change a great deal for them because only 2/3 will make it into the first team

Eh? 2 or 3 is a better return than most.

[Reece]

FFS Can we please just cut out the petty squabbling in every ****ing thread. You don't know how sick and tired the Admin/Mods are getting of it all. Can't people just have a debate without resorting to condescending and patronising comments? It's generally the same people time and time again and it has got very very predictable and boring.

[cumbriankop]

the acid test for these arsenal kids isnt the carling cxup its years from now. the same for ours

i dont think wenger beleives these kids are anywhere near ready, and thats why he'll play full strength teams against the wigans of the world in the league.

i agree that theyre kids look better, but i also think that its no good having entirely young players. if we were bolder and played insua and plessis more we could blood youngsters alongside experience which is far better for their development, though we risk what is more important than any youngster - the league.

also the most impressive performance i've seen by youth at the emirates recently was plessis last year in the league who was absolutely dependable. i think the carling cup is the youth's mecca and to wigan's first team its a physical distraction from the premier league survival race which matters far more to them as its what guarantees they have jobs next year.

when wilshere et al play in the league for 25 minutes and play 'ok' thats far more impressive for me as they have made it to the first team, not what is by wenger's own admission the reserves.

people need to get out of football manager and give these kids time to grow up and be 'veterans' at 21 - like fabregas. judge the player then. not the potential now

[Woobus]

It's not about winning things at that level, it's about making the grade at first team level - which they are.

Ours arent.

Most of the players have only been at the club for a year or so and you expect them in the first team already? El Zhar has been at the club a few years and is finally stepping up and getting some games, would expect Nemeth to step up later on in the year or next year.

[Craig_H]

Most of the players have only been at the club for a year or so and you expect them in the first team already? El Zhar has been at the club a few years and is finally stepping up and getting some games, would expect Nemeth to step up later on in the year or next year.

Why cant they play in the first team for the league cup?

How long has Wilshere been at Arsenal then? He's only 16 mate, it cant have been long, can it? He's had a few chances to play (and shine) for the first team against PL opposition.

[dww]

I think some valid points have been raised but views seem very polar.

I think over the years Wenger has proved himself the master of taking talented 16-20 year olds and forming PL class and occasionally world class players from them. Until recently he has largely bought in top talent in that age bracket.

This year has been the first when a/ his league cup and b/ his PL bench has featured young players bought up all the way through the Wenger youth system. It appears to be a good system.

In terms of a comparison to us we have seen Rafa do what Wenger did early in his career identify young players ready for the first team (Agger, Skrtel) equivalent to the likes of Vieira. We have seen him do the next stage of buying talented young players who need polishing but this has not yet borne fruit at first team level although it has revolutionised the reserves. Given that Wenger took over a decade to start getting young English players through the system there should be no emphasis on Rafa having to do the same here at the minute.

On the other hand Rafa has not given many opportunities to the likes of Insua and Plessiss who are on the fringes of the first team and we might have expected more cup appearances. That said as has been mentioned by others Rafa seems to feel players develop better later so a target age for breakthrough might well be 20-22 rather than 18-20.