Kids ?

[Craig_H]

Football is not about developing kids it's about developing a competitive team. That's the ultimate aim of any manager.

If reserve / youth football wasn't all about winning why would they bother competing in cups etc ... Winning is good for kids confidence and it's a crucial aspect of nurturing kids. It gives them the hunger and a 'feel' of things.

You are the one talking bollocks with your negative stance.

So you dont think the objective of youth and reserve football is to develop players into first teamers?

Obviously they'll have cups and such like, it's a footballing structure and yes it breeds confidence, but the be-all and end-all is that those players are intended to break into the first team.

[Craig_H]

Ok lets talk about these supposedly amazing Arsenal youngsters

Fabianski- Average at best. He will never make the grade. He is 23 now and still looks average

Djourou- Average. Never in a million years would he get into our 1st team

Song- Average, never get near our team

Gibbs- Has potential

Gavin Hoyte- Is he supposed to be good? He will end up in the championship

Randall- Too early to judge

Ramsay- £5m from Cardiff

Merida- Looks okay but speculative to whether he will make it

Simpson- Potentially a good poacher but i cant see him ever making it as a regular even for Arsenal.

Vela- Good spot by the Arsenal scouts, looked quality in la liga last season

Wilshire. Top quality.

So out of all them Vela and Wilshire will be stars. The rest? Meh nothing special at all.

Liverpool FC are a class above. It would be unthinkable for us to lose to teams like Fulham, Hull and Stoke in the space of a couple of months. Arsenal have serious problems that are masked by occasional top quality performances. These young 'kids' wont change a great deal for them because only 2/3 will make it into the first team

2 or 3 out of 11 is a great return though.

How many of our kids in a youth team or reserve team do you think are likely to break through into the 1st team? Genuine queston.

[El Jefecito]

They actually not doing well, that's just a fact isnt it?

The bigger picture is the development of youngsters and hopefully seeing them turn into first teamers, who will save us transfer funds.

By 18 or 19, you'd want there to be signs of being able to feature in the first eleven and compete. The Arsenal kids are showing these signs at every time of asking. Ours dont generally seem to get a chance to, and that's a concern, dont you think?

Why 18 or 19? Why not 22? Do you become ready on your birthday?

Arsenal Kids of 2003 who "slaughtered" someone or other, had this same jizzfest going on. How many are first teamers now and would you have in our first team?

Almunia, Eboue, Cygan, Campbell, Senderos, Larsson, Muamba, Song, Owusu-Abeyie, Van Persie, Lupoli.

I'd have a big fat 0. So wipe the cum off your chops and don't be fooled by the Purple Aki's sideshow.

[-V-]

Honestly? In time i would guess, Nemeth, Pacheco, Gerardo Bruno, Insua, Plesis, Gulacsi, Darby all have a chance of making it. Nemeth sooner than the others. Im unsure about spearing but those guys are young and talented

[Guest]

It's not about winning things at that level, it's about making the grade at first team level - which they are.

Ours arent.

So you dont think the objective of youth and reserve football is to develop players into first teamers?

Obviously they'll have cups and such like, it's a footballing structure and yes it breeds confidence, but the be-all and end-all is that those players are intended to break into the first team.

No you miss the point completely.

It's a platform for them to progress despite the competition. Only the outstanding ones will go through. It's no use having a 'weaker' first team just to allow some of these youngsters to go through.

What can you see about Arsenal? These kids only play in the carling cup, where the level is mediocre and teams aren't really taking the cup seriously. Does that make these Arsenal youngsters special?

Get a grip mate. Just show me who made the grade (out of this Arsenal kids team you're drooling about) into their first team regularly. None. Wenger is still stuck with kids who made it through some 5 years ago.

[ukfootballfan101]

The thing everyone is missing about Arsenal is that they don't have enough high quality older players. Last year their midfield wasn't strong enough and then they lose Flamini, Hleb and Silva and replace them with Nasri?

Wenger has this huge ego and wants to be the manager who "discovers" all these amazing young talents and turns them into superstars, but football has changed over the past few years, the whole "you don't win anything with kids" thing is now true, you need a blend of young kids and older experienced players who stay calm when the pressure builds at the end of the season. Arsenal don't have any calm heads, remember Gallas towards the end of the season? as a captain he was a disgrace.

If Arsenal had Gerrard and Carragher, IMO they would be 10 times the team they are now. Not just because of the ability they bring as 2 individual players but because of their attitude and mentality - Arsenals youngsters need players like that to learn from.

[Guest]

Why 18 or 19? Why not 22? Do you become ready on your birthday?

Arsenal Kids of 2003 who "slaughtered" someone or other, had this same jizzfest going on. How many are first teamers now and would you have in our first team?

Almunia, Eboue, Cygan, Campbell, Senderos, Larsson, Muamba, Song, Owusu-Abeyie, Van Persie, Lupoli.

I'd have a big fat 0. So wipe the cum off your chops and don't be fooled by the Purple Aki's sideshow.

[Craig_H]

Why 18 or 19? Why not 22? Do you become ready on your birthday?

Arsenal Kids of 2003 who "slaughtered" someone or other, had this same jizzfest going on. How many are first teamers now and would you have in our first team?

Almunia, Eboue, Cygan, Campbell, Senderos, Larsson, Muamba, Song, Owusu-Abeyie, Van Persie, Lupoli.

I'd have a big fat 0. So wipe the cum off your chops and don't be fooled by the Purple Aki's sideshow.

I wasnt saying it as a definitive age, i just meant that generally, most players who make it are knocking at the first team door by 18 or 19, if they're not already in it.

That Arsenal team of 2003 is what i meant by one coincidental example of so called evidence to the contrary of what i've said.

All i was pointing out though, is that those current kids they have look a class apart and in thumping a team of established PL players, they've achieved something very few groups of youngsters could achieve - ours included, in my view.

But anyway, i can see this going round in circles personally and there's no decent outcome that can be reached, so let's just agree to disagree. You think what you think and i'll think what i think and let's leave it at that.

Same goes for you fredo, no point in us arguing it over and over. Each to their own.

[Guest]

The thing everyone is missing about Arsenal is that they don't have enough high quality older players. Last year their midfield wasn't strong enough and then they lose Flamini, Hleb and Silva and replace them with Nasri?

Wenger has this huge ego and wants to be the manager who "discovers" all these amazing young talents and turns them into superstars, but football has changed over the past few years, the whole "you don't win anything with kids" thing is now true, you need a blend of young kids and older experienced players who stay calm when the pressure builds at the end of the season. Arsenal don't have any calm heads, remember Gallas towards the end of the season? as a captain he was a disgrace.

If Arsenal had Gerrard and Carragher, IMO they would be 10 times the team they are now. Not just because of the ability they bring as 2 individual players but because of their attitude and mentality - Arsenals youngsters need players like that to learn from.

Wenger has created a myth around beautiful football and nurturing some top quality kids, that is all.

He hasn't won the league since Bergkamp and co went into retirement.

[Craig_H]

Honestly? In time i would guess, Nemeth, Pacheco, Gerardo Bruno, Insua, Plesis, Gulacsi, Darby all have a chance of making it. Nemeth sooner than the others. Im unsure about spearing but those guys are young and talented

That's not my main dispute mate, they all have shown signs of being very talented. They dont get the opportunities though, that's the biggest problem.

They may or may not be good enough to make the grade, but you can only find out by trying and i very much doubt many of our actual kids will get a run out tomorrow night. To be honest, i think that FA Cup debacle at Burnley had an impact on Rafa and his tendency to give kids a game. I hope i'm wrong.

[El Jefecito]

Honestly? In time i would guess, Nemeth, Pacheco, Gerardo Bruno, Insua, Plesis, Gulacsi, Darby all have a chance of making it. Nemeth sooner than the others. Im unsure about spearing but those guys are young and talented

I think a fairer comparison of Wengers vs. Rafas "youth system" is to compare what he put out 7 years after he had established his i.e. Almunia, Eboue, Cygan, Campbell, Senderos, Larsson, Muamba, Song, Owusu-Abeyie, Van Persie, Lupoli.

To what we have today. I'd definitely take those you mention over the arsenal line up. Although you are more optimistic than me.

[Guest]

Same goes for you fredo, no point in us arguing it over and over. Each to their own.

Each to their own after you ran out of puff.

Thing is, time and again you come out with this bollocks (sorry but it's true). We should be judged in the strength of our first team. If young kids come through then that's great.

It's not as if we aren't doing anything to bring young kids through also so I don't see the point in drooling about Arsenal thumping a team of nobody's (Wigan or Sheffield) in a not so competitive cup. I guess that the reserves is more competitive than the Carling cup these days.

But yes, each to their own.

[Craig_H]

No you miss the point completely.

It's a platform for them to progress despite the competition. Only the outstanding ones will go through. It's no use having a 'weaker' first team just to allow some of these youngsters to go through.

What can you see about Arsenal? These kids only play in the carling cup, where the level is mediocre and teams aren't really taking the cup seriously. Does that make these Arsenal youngsters special?

Get a grip mate. Just show me who made the grade (out of this Arsenal kids team you're drooling about) into their first team regularly. None. Wenger is still stuck with kids who made it through some 5 years ago.

Fredo:

1 - i didnt say having a weaker first team is any 'use'.
2 - the arsenal kids have comfortably thumped a full strength Wigan side who are taking it seriously. You didnt watch the game so you cant really make that 'seriously' comment. I dont think many other kids would've have done the same, so on that basis, yes it looks a bit special.
3 - people like Ramsey and Wilshere are 17 and 16. Vela is 19. They're hardly going to be in the 1st team every week, but they've all had their toes dipped in and are progressing.

I'm saying no more to you, it's like trying to dry a puddle in the rain.

Each to their own after you ran out of puff.

You probably know more about 'puffs' than i do Let's see how many kids we field tomorrow night, and see how much we're trying to bring them through. I hope several get a run out.

But no, i didnt run out of anything, you're just not worth the time, effort or inevitable pointless arguments. I've got some dusting that needs doing and is a more worthwhile use of my time. Have a good night. And if you get some spare time, watch a few of these kids play - then you'll be able to voice an INFORMED opinion

[El Jefecito]

I wasnt saying it as a definitive age, i just meant that generally, most players who make it are knocking at the first team door by 18 or 19, if they're not already in it.

That Arsenal team of 2003 is what i meant by one coincidental example of so called evidence to the contrary of what i've said.

All i was pointing out though, is that those current kids they have look a class apart and in thumping a team of established PL players, they've achieved something very few groups of youngsters could achieve - ours included, in my view.

But anyway, i can see this going round in circles personally and there's no decent outcome that can be reached, so let's just agree to disagree. You think what you think and i'll think what i think and let's leave it at that.

Same goes for you fredo, no point in us arguing it over and over. Each to their own.

Agree, the 18-19 thing is a legitimate point though. I think the "system" gets a lot of **** because people expect players to be in the first team because they are a certain age. But there was a very good interview with Piet Hamberg where he spoke about a specific development methodology which had physical development at the very end and he made it clear that until players reached certain physical / stamina goals they would not even be considered for the first team.

Anyone that saw El Zhar even a year ago would be amazed at his physqiue now, he's a unit compared to back then. The same could be said of Insua. Under that regime it looks like we shouldn't expect to be seeing players until 20-21, so reset expectations and maybe things aren't quite as bad as you make out.

[Guest]

Fredo:

1 - i didnt say having a weaker first team is any 'use'.
2 - the arsenal kids have comfortably thumped a full strength Wigan side who are taking it seriously. You didnt watch the game so you cant really make that 'seriously' comment. I dont think many other kids would've have done the same, so on that basis, yes it looks a bit special.
3 - people like Ramsey and Wilshere are 17 and 16. Vela is 19. They're hardly going to be in the 1st team every week, but they've all had their toes dipped in and are progressing.

I'm saying no more to you, it's like trying to dry a puddle in the rain.

The Carling cup is a nothing competition mate. It's a glorified reserve league IMO. I don't watch it because it's ****e.