John Barnes On Lucas & The Liverpool Squad

[Craig_H]

I though he was actually very effective at the end of last season.

He may well have been, depending on your idea of 'effectiveness', but he's definitely had more ineffective games than effective ones.

This term, he was Man of the Match at Newcastle, (ahead of Gerrard - the teams best performance this term, up until recently) and had good games against Villa away, Crewe in the Cup (scored the winner too), Portsmouth (home), Marseilles away and played very well against the Mancs.

Nearly all of his other appearances, up until January, were as a sub. Also worth bearing in mind he was away at the Olympics over the summer and the first month of the season

He had a few poor games, culminating in losing us two points and then the sending off (which was two harsh yellows). However, during that entire time, the whole of the team was poor.

I'll agree with you on Newcastle. Villa away, barely noticed him, ditto for Pompey at home and Marseille away. Crewe in the Cup? Meh, the domestic cups go in one ear and out the other.

Even if all those games you listed were true, and i dispute 3 of them, even then you could say he's had what, 5-10 good games in a red shirt? And the rest (the majority) werent good. So my point would still stand.

Exaggeration for effect is all well and good, but it somewhat neglects to focus on the actual facts.

I agree. Which is why my point wasnt exaggerated. The majority of his game HAVE been ineffective or poor.

[Guest]

So basically Lucas isn't consistent, that's in a nutshell what Craig is saying.

[wiw]

He may well have been, depending on your idea of 'effectiveness', but he's definitely had more ineffective games than effective ones.

Erm, you're depending this "therefore I'm right" business on your idea of effectiveness?

[barnes10]

The majority of Lucas' displays for LFC have been largely ineffective or poor - that is a fact mate. Forget 'he isnt the only one' and other passing the buck, my point is about him, not others.

its not a fact. lucas is the personification of an 'effective' player. He does a lot of dirty work and keeping things simple. for that he gets no glory but like any other player, his mistakes are noticed.

so we have a warped view where its very easy to not take his positive contributions to the team into account but instead focus on individual errors.

look at the team sheets for all of our best displays this season. lucas will be in more than half of them.

[Flight]

I'll agree with you on Newcastle. Villa away, barely noticed him, ditto for Pompey at home and Marseille away. Crewe in the Cup? Meh, the domestic cups go in one ear and out the other.

Even if all those games you listed were true, and i dispute 3 of them, even then you could say he's had what, 5-10 good games in a red shirt? And the rest (the majority) werent good. So my point would still stand


I agree. Which is why my point wasnt exaggerated. The majority of his game HAVE been ineffective or poor.

You seem unaware that he only played about two other games for us this term (before January) (and I'm pretty sure one or both was in a domestic cup, so in one ear and out the other ). If you want to consider 5 and 10 minute sub appearances too I suppose we can, but he's not had a poor game as a sub.

To be honest mate (no offence personally) but you are talking ****e.

[Craig_H]

Erm, you're depending this "therefore I'm right" business on your idea of effectiveness?

ok mate, if you think the majority of Lucas' performances in a red shirt have been good or acceptable for a club like LFC, then you and i are obviously aiming for different levels of standard.

its not a fact. lucas is the personification of an 'effective' player. He does a lot of dirty work and keeping things simple. for that he gets no glory but like any other player, his mistakes are noticed.

so we have a warped view where its very easy to not take his positive contributions to the team into account but instead focus on individual errors.

look at the team sheets for all of our best displays this season. lucas will be in more than half of them.

Alonso and Mascherano do all that 'dirty work' AND still make a noticeable positive impact. Nothing personal to you, but it amazes me how little we expect of our players, judging by some of the posts that are singing Lucas' praises. We've had players like Souness, McMahon and Whelan...and now Alonso and Mascherano, producing brilliant displays which set the standard - yet people think Lucas is good enough. Everyone's entitled to their opinion, but it really does astound me.

If Lucas played for anyone else, the general feeling about him would be that he's little better than average.

You seem unaware that he only played about two other games for us this term (before January) (and I'm pretty sure one or both was in a domestic cup, so in one ear and out the other ). If you want to consider 5 and 10 minute sub appearances too I suppose we can, but he's not had a poor game as a sub.

To be honest mate (no offence personally) but you are talking ****e.

If i'd said 'this season', then you might have a point. Unfortunately i didnt, so it's actually you who's talking ****e.

FYI - sub appearances still count as appearances.

[wiw]

Craig, again, you're moving the goalposts. That's not what I said. For the record I like Lucas and think he's effective at what he does (which I believe is what he's being told to do), I'm just picking you out on your attitude towards the whole thing

[Guest]

Craig, again, you're moving the goalposts. That's not what I said. For the record I like Lucas and think he's effective at what he does (which I believe is what he's being told to do), I'm just picking you out on your attitude towards the whole thing

Look at my signature.

[Craig_H]

Craig, again, you're moving the goalposts. That's not what I said. For the record I like Lucas and think he's effective at what he does (which I believe is what he's being told to do), I'm just picking you out on your attitude towards the whole thing

My 'attitude' ? I just dont personally consider Lucas' contributions in a red shirt to have been particularly good, barring a handful of games where he's performed above his usual level.

[wiw]

My 'attitude' ? I just dont personally consider Lucas' contributions in a red shirt to have been particularly good, barring a handful of games where he's performed above his usual level.

Ok, your attitude towards everything.

I'm tired of every thread turning into 'Craig vs..' It doesn't take a genius to work out the common demoninator. Now don't get me wrong, this doesn't have anything to do with the fact that you disagree with Rafa, criticise players or whatever else - that I (and we) am(/are) fine with, obviously. We encourage debate here, that's exactly what it is for.

It is your insistence on believing you are right on every matter under the sun and arguing the same point to death over and over, despite sometimes irrefutable evidence to the contrary.

You're always 'on the bounce' mate, can you not see that? You talk a lot of sense and you often call a spade a spade - but often other times you state something as fact (or as your unwavering opinion) whilst largely ignoring the context or other factors that may play a part

It is perfectly acceptable to turn around and say "you know what, I'm wrong on that" you know?

[Craig_H]

But wiw, who on here posts an opinion that they believe to be incorrect? Honestly?

[wiw]

Look, that is precisely the problem. Acknowledge what I've said rather than come out with some straight bat answer

[Craig_H]

??? You said i think i'm always right and i'm asking you how that's different from others? Do people take a view they disagree with and post it as their opinion??? Crikey.

Have a good day wiw.

[wiw]

If you can't see the problem then there's no point really

[Craig_H]

"If you dont know, then i'm not going to tell you" Great point mate, really mature.

I answered your point by saying that i think every poster, when posting a viewpoint, thinks it's correct, as it's their viewpoint. Is that incorrect? If it is, please do say so.

I dont see how that's different when i post a view which i obviously think is correct.
You see what i mean, i hope.

Anyway, **** it...Fulham are winning