Houllier - summer 2002, Benitez - summer 2006

[Kopite_Colin]

Some valid points, and not a smilie in sight, well in, Mike.

You mention Kuyt and Agger as two players who 'have brought in some real quality', I totally agree with this statement, and there's a considerable reason why this is the case. It's Because they were Rafa's first choice targets.

Unfortunately, Pennant was not a first choice target, he was behind a good two or three, far, far better footballers, Alves and Guily being the top two. I'm not saying Pennant's an awful player, he's not, but he's not good enough for a side looking for a title challenge. Just a quick sta for you, Pennant's career record stands at a goal every 14 games, about three a season. For an attacking midfielder, that's woeful. Seven million is a staggering amount to pay for squad player, are we agreed on this ? As for Aurelio, well I'm sorry, but he's a very, very tepid footballer and he shouldn't be at the club.

I take your point regarding Gonzales, so far, although at time's he's offered a real curate's egg of a performance, he has looked like a genuine goal threat. I'm still far from convinced that he's anywhere near as good as J.Cole, Ronaldo, Hleb etc, but I'm prepared to give him time.

Regarding Cisse and Bellamy, I have never once suggested Bellamy isn't a more complete player, however he offers no where near the goal threat Djib does. Essentially they're both moany, erractic, pacey tatooed strikers who have no concept whatsoever of the offside rule. Only difference is, Djib scored goals. And (despite what some ridiculously naive and simplistic posters will argue), important ones at that.

FA Cup final, pen in Istanbul, the Super Cup, I could go on....

To sum up, in a round about way, manager's tenure generally rise and fall as a result of the purchases they make. And the past summer has been the worst (in terms of transfers) since 2002, in my opinion.

I dont buy any of that bollocks that Rafa 'hasn't been backed by the board'. He's had massive amounts of money to spend.

I genuinely expected more after our progress last season, it's a real shame.

If offered, I'd take the Carling Cup trophy and a fourth placed finish right now.

You ?

Apart from the last 2 lines, a very, very good post.

[anfieldanfield]

Look at the goalscoring stats. He most definitely isn't. 2 goals in how many games? But rotation isn't helping him.

2 goals in 11 games, pretty poor, huh ?

[CharlieMansonsSquint]

In the summer of 2002, after the World Cup in Japan and Korea, Houllier could have, and definitely should have, bought Anelka and Duff, instead, he went for that catastrophic trio, of Diouf, Diao and Cheyrou, two of which we still haven't managed to fully release off our books.

Ultimately these tranfer decisions, cost him his job.

Had he gone with Anelka and Duff, there's a fair chance he'd still be in charge today, such was the importance of that summer spending spree.

How does this concern Rafa ?

Well, this summer Rafa let Hamann and Cisse leave, he probably should've kept hold of both. We're going to miss Djib's goals, no doubt about that, and we've already seen occasions this season, (such as the last half hour against Galatasaray) that were made for Hamann's style.

The crucial thing is, if Rafa insisted on replacing these two players, it is essential he improves the squad with the replacements.

Aurelio, Bellamy, Pennant and Gonzales aren't good enough to mount a title challenge with, that's the honest truth, the majority of them were bought because of a discounted price pinned to their shirt. I genuinely can't see anything in Aurelio to suggest he's worth having at the club, we've already got two left backs and two left wingers, very odd decision from Rafa. I suppose he was free, *shrugs*.

Rafa should've have gone for quality, not quantity (our squad's already too big), this summer. A bit of extra cash would've secured a long term transfer target, such as Daniel Alves or Guily.

We're out the title race and it's only mid October, it's depressing, yet not unfamiliar, I'd take fourth place now if it was offered, without question.

So, the question I pose is this; could Rafa's transfer aquisitions in the summer of 2006 have an equally influential impact as Houllier's summer of 2002 ?

I agree with what you say apart from the comparison between the 2 summer spends.

Kuyt has already shown his quality, and to be fair to Gonzalez he's shown flashes, but he hasn't played nearly enough to pass judgement. Aurelio was free, so no harm done there, the real problem has been with Pennant and Bellamy. They simply aren't better than what we had last season.

Comparing that with Ged's out and out disaster in the transfer market is just plain wrong. Rafa's brough the club forward, but having brought in Bellamy and Pennant he unfortunately hasn't taken us forward again like he'd hoped. The difference with Ged and Diouf/Cheyrou and Diao was that he actually set the club back with those signings, and he nearly bought Bowyer that summer too. shudders

Rafa knows what he's doing. And as you say he couldn't get his first choices for those positions, due to a lack of funds, so he took a punt of Pennant and Bellamy. It's backfired.

In hindsight I reckon the failure of Morientes to adapt was a big blow to Rafa. There's no doubt he's a top class player and goalscorer, getting him was a massive coup at the time. All logic said he should've been great for us.

We're at the point now where we need to be buying top class players, even if they cost £15-£20m. Like David Villa and Daniel Alves for example, they are worth it. Bellamy and Pennant at £13m combined simply aren't. What's better?, 2 mediocres for £13m or a top class player for £15m. Things need to change so Rafa can buy the right players that are also his first choices. If we keep settling for second best, that's all we'll get.

[Morph]

Only difference is, Djib scored goals. And (despite what some ridiculously naive and simplistic posters will argue), important ones at that.

What's with all the Cisse love, he was absolute tosh, and if you seriously think we'd be in any better of a position with him still in the side then I think you are deluded. It would be difficult to make comparrisons.

But lets for arguments sake remove the 5 goals from Cisse for the matches Bellmay hasn't has the opportunity to play in, so less 5 takes us to 14. And lets be serious a 1st and 2nd round qualifiers and super cup count for fcuk all, in the goal scoring stakes.

So they both have a goal from the 3rd round qualifiers.
Neither has a goal in the champions league proper at this point.
Cisse has 2 goals in the prem by this point vs Bellamy's one, however one of those was a pen, so open play goals are equal.

So what exactly is your point, because I fail to see it.

[anfieldanfield]

I agree with what you say apart from the comparison between the 2 summer spends.

Kuyt has already shown his quality, and to be fair to Gonzalez he's shown flashes, but he hasn't played nearly enough to pass judgement. Aurelio was free, so no harm done there, the real problem has been with Pennant and Bellamy. They simply aren't better than what we had last season.

Comparing that with Ged's out and out disaster in the transfer market is just plain wrong. Rafa's brough the club forward, but having brought in Bellamy and Pennant he unfortunately hasn't taken us forward again like he'd hoped. The difference with Ged and Diouf/Cheyrou and Diao was that he actually set the club back with those signings, and he nearly bought Bowyer that summer too. shudders

Rafa knows what he's doing. And as you say he couldn't get his first choices for those positions, due to a lack of funds, so he took a punt of Pennant and Bellamy. It's backfired.

In hindsight I reckon the failure of Morientes to adapt was a big blow to Rafa. There's no doubt he's a top class player and goalscorer, getting him was a massive coup at the time. All logic said he should've been great for us.

We're at the point now where we need to be buying top class players, even if they cost £15-£20m. Like David Villa and Daniel Alves for example, they are worth it. Bellamy and Pennant at £13m combined simply aren't. What's better?, 2 mediocres for £13m or a top class player for £15m. Things need to change so Rafa can buy the right players that are also his first choices. If we keep settling for second best, that's all we'll get.

I agree with a vast amount of the aforementioned.

Morientes should have taken us to the next level.

Look at him play for Valencia, he's got it all, technically a wonderfully gifted footballer, it's a real shame it didn't work out for him over here. Looking at Anelka's sublime second half performance today, you have to wonder the difference this lad would've made, after all, he was second on Rafa's list after Morientes.

Shame.

[CharlieMansonsSquint]

In my view yes, and I'm not a Bellamy fan. Cisse was an absolute waster who had the work ethic of Bagpuss.

Cisse v Bellamy is not the question for me.

The question for me is why we blew 14 million quid on two players who aren't good enough for a top club instead of just settling on one who is.

For me, Kuyt apart, we have bought the right positions, but the wrong players.

Bellamy and Pennant have a long history of playing in the Premiership, and so I'd formed judgements on them before they came and was pretty upset that we were in for them. I've seen nothing to change my mind, despite today's goal.

Aurelio is, as Molby put it on the radio after the game "not good enough for Liverpool and never will be".

Gonzales may or may not be good enough, but if he is why isn't he in the team?

Our squad is as far away off a title challenge as it was last season in my view. Except we've blown a load of money on players that I'm pretty sure will have to be moved on - probably at a loss.

I'd have rather kept our money in our pocket than splash out on players who just don't have the quality required by a top football club.

Totally agree.

[Lecter]

Is Bellamy better than Cisse though ? That may be the more relevant question.

My 17 month old daughters better than Cisse

[anfieldanfield]

My 17 month old daughters better than Cisse

*sighs*

Great post, you a RAWK member by any chance ?

[kopdan]

no seriously she is. Two great feet and pace to burn

Sadly her dress sense is slightly worse

[Bob]

*sighs*

Great post, you a RAWK member by any chance ?

Jamo **** off! Not everyone has the time to write big **** off posts that basically equate to 'Cisse scored 19 goals last season therefore he is great'. Especially given this topic has been debated up and down the t'internet boards all day long, and everytime the common consensus is that 17 month old child is better than that fud Cisse.

Oh and, :whatever: :whatever: :whatever: :whatever: :whatever: :whatever:

[Lecter]

*sighs*

Great post, you a RAWK member by any chance ?

OK as Bob said the arguest tired and worn out but heres the long version

Cisse is quick and yes he scored goals although I'm not sure that you can count the half dozen or so he scored against TNS et al as being anything more than friendly games

For me Cisse couldnt trap a bag of cement nevermind control a football, he had no vision and his shooting in general was blast the ball as hard as possible and hope

Having grown up on watching a diet of Rush, Keegan and Dalglish its pretty hard to be enthused by someone whose only attribute appeared to be that he could run quickly and weigh in with goals against lesser opposition

Cisse's most frustrating flaw was his attitude, hes quite possibly the lazyest forward I have seen at the club. For all his great pace he rarely chased any balls down and very rarely showed himself in important games

I couldnt wait to see the back of him and frankly wouldnt have him back no matter what

[anfieldanfield]

For all his great pace he rarely chased any balls down and very rarely showed himself in important games

A penalty in Istanbul, a crucial (and superbly taken) leveller in the FA Cup final, two goals to single handedly win us the Super Cup.....

Besides, the entire, 'he only scored against **** oppostion' argument borders on the nonsensical.

A goal's a goal. A win's a win. Three points are three points.

Someone had to score against Kaunas, TNS etc, or we wouldn't have progressed, Cisse and Stevie stepped up to the plate and did just that. The fact is, the vast majority of our games are against supposedly inferior oppostion.

Cisse scored 9 league goals last season, I'll eat my hat if Bellamy scores more than that.

[Morph]

I'll bet you 20 quid right now that Bellamy will score more than 9 league goals this season providing he's given the same amount of playing time.

[Red_Polo]

Cisse scored 9 league goals last season, I'll eat my hat if Bellamy scores more than that.

That's going in my siggy.

[Dhav]

I agree with what you say apart from the comparison between the 2 summer spends.

Kuyt has already shown his quality, and to be fair to Gonzalez he's shown flashes, but he hasn't played nearly enough to pass judgement. Aurelio was free, so no harm done there, the real problem has been with Pennant and Bellamy. They simply aren't better than what we had last season.

Comparing that with Ged's out and out disaster in the transfer market is just plain wrong. Rafa's brough the club forward, but having brought in Bellamy and Pennant he unfortunately hasn't taken us forward again like he'd hoped. The difference with Ged and Diouf/Cheyrou and Diao was that he actually set the club back with those signings, and he nearly bought Bowyer that summer too. shudders

Rafa knows what he's doing. And as you say he couldn't get his first choices for those positions, due to a lack of funds, so he took a punt of Pennant and Bellamy. It's backfired.

In hindsight I reckon the failure of Morientes to adapt was a big blow to Rafa. There's no doubt he's a top class player and goalscorer, getting him was a massive coup at the time. All logic said he should've been great for us.

We're at the point now where we need to be buying top class players, even if they cost £15-£20m. Like David Villa and Daniel Alves for example, they are worth it. Bellamy and Pennant at £13m combined simply aren't. What's better?, 2 mediocres for £13m or a top class player for £15m. Things need to change so Rafa can buy the right players that are also his first choices. If we keep settling for second best, that's all we'll get.

I agree wholeheartedly with this post, except to say that IMO Rafa had no choice but to buy cut-price and sacrifice the likes of Alves and Villa for Pennant and Bellamy. Im not a big fan of either player, and I was particularly disappointed we signed Pennant when for so long we looked like getting Alves. But realistically, we could only afford one top-class striker or rightwinger, we couldnt afford to get one of each. If we got Villa or the like, we wouldnt have a recognised RW at the club, if we signed Alves we would have only had 2 quality strikers at the club plus Fowler (who is way off the pace) and therefore we would have been far too short of attacking options.

In retrospect, the thing that really ****ed up Rafa's plans was Cisse's injury. If we had that extra £8m, I'm sure we would have signed one of Alves instead of Pennant, or maybe a better striker than Bellamy. Cisse ****ed us up twice, when we signed him for £14m and now when we tried to get rid. Perhaps if he comes back fit and we get good money for him in Jan we might still see Alves come in.

Having seen Pennant yesterday and Alves in the Super Cup against Barca, I'm dreaming of what might have been.