THE Lucas thread

[MrMichael]

I have no problem with Kuyt as a striker, in a pair. On Saturday, he seemed to be part playing upfront and partly off Torres. Or even Yossi off Torres, in a 4411 kinda thing. No probs with that.

I dont know if you saw 'Super Sunday, the Last Word' and as loathe as i am to say this, but Andy Gray was spot on with what he said about our system against 'lesser' sides at Anfield.

I'm not criticising the selection against Burnley mind, we won 4-0 so that's that. Then again, we played a four man midfield and Gerrard in CM didnt we?

I see no point in two protective CMs at home to relegation fodder and i think it takes away from our attacking threat, partly helping to contribute to those pesky 0-0 draws last year.

Yeah, I tend to agree with that. I think as the season goes on we may find out that Rafa mostly does too.

I thought we nominally played 4-2-3-1 against Burnley with Benny and Kuyt moving all over and Riera holding out left. Whatever, just proves how simple formational notions don't always apply perfectly to Rafa's lineups.

[Craig_H]

Would it make it less circular if all we said was "Lucas is good"/"Lucas sucks"?

The point is they might want to know if they observe the same things and weight them differently or that there are somethings that escaped their observations.

Last season someone pointed out for example the number of clumsy fouls Lucas gives away to me in dangerous places. I hadn't really noticed. before. I now tend to agree although at the time I think he got a slightly rough deal as the foul often got given because he ended up on the floor largely due to his lack of physical presence. This season though he has made a few similar mistakes (although he has been far from alone).

I genuinely think that for example against Spurs he was one of our better players and people criticised him when realistically there was little that was his fault and certainly not his fault alone. In general play this season I think he has been a very solid performer for us who has made a few (costly) mistakes. the question to me is whether they are something inherent in his game or the sort of bad luck that tends to happen to players trying to do too much and with a possible lack of confidence at times.

I'm interested in hearing if anyone has an argument that alters how I see things or gives me extra insight. Just hearing that you don't rate someone doesn't do that and neither does trying to force the conversation into a series of binary choices.

I hear all that and it's not that i'm trying to 'cover up' my views on it. But i cant win, i'm either saying something without backing it up/justifying it, or i'm 'going on and on about it'.

You touched upon the single most appropriate word to signify why i think Lucas should be a squad player/backup option at most. Solid. That sums him up, solid, neat and tidy etc, but IMO without significant impact.

The biggest factor, more than this even however, is the fact that we have 3 better CM players than him.

[Craig_H]

lucas interview

"I knew when Xabi left (for Real Madrid) that people would compare (us) but anyone who knows football knows I am not the same player as Xabi," he told reporters at Anfield.

who the fcuk is comparing ???a little praise from rafa for his lovechild and it has gone to his head.deluded!

Dont be silly mate, obviously with us playing the same system and Alonso gone (and Aquilani unfit), Lucas is the one who's been thrust into Alonso's place, so obviously that's what he means.

[Guest]

The biggest factor, more than this even however, is the fact that we have 3 better CM players than him.

Not true. Two at most. Mascher is a destroyer, that's all. I don't trust him when he's having to dictate the play and pass the ball out of defence.

[Craig_H]

That's a good point. That's why playing Mascherano isn't a good option. Play Lucas and Stevie G/Aqui-La-Ni instead, at home against cannon fodder.

Not sure I've been impressed at Mascher dictating our play since Alonso's gone. Apart from one match, against Stoke, he's been very average.

If you player ONE holding midfielder in those games, why would you choose Lucas for that role, over one of the best 2 holding midfielders in the world?

There's nobody better in that role, than Mascherano and Essien.

[Assassin]

This isnt aimed solely at you, but i think we've reached a crossroads here.

Either people are:

1) Clueless
2) On a windup

Or i'm just missing a chasm of a point.

But....

You're seriously saying you'd pick Lucas ahead of Mascherano???

Really?????

I must be going loopy.

First of all, this season Lucas is winning more tackles than Mascherano, fact.

Lets look at it from a different angle Craig. Rafa picks players on form Lucas is on form and Mascherano clearly isnt on form

Did we actually miss Mascherano against Burnley. In a word....no. I you think so, I would like to know, how when and where, especially as Lucas was in all probability MOM

Everbody is assuming the Aquilani will be replacing Lucas in the side, I dont think it is a clear cut as that

Am I winding you up?

Well that is for me to know and you to continue wondering about

[Craig_H]

Yeah, I tend to agree with that. I think as the season goes on we may find out that Rafa mostly does too.

I thought we nominally played 4-2-3-1 against Burnley with Benny and Kuyt moving all over and Riera holding out left. Whatever, just proves how simple formational notions don't always apply perfectly to Rafa's lineups.

That's a fair point. I personally felt that Gerrard was definitely playing less advanced and a more disciplined role, but you could argue at times, that we did play 4231 and Gerrard was simply one of the '2' alongside Lucas, while the others kept the '3-1' part going.

What it does highlight, is how interchangable we can be with our role assignment, and this pleases me.

[Guest]

If you player ONE holding midfielder in those games, why would you choose Lucas for that role, over one of the best 2 holding midfielders in the world?

There's nobody better in that role, than Mascherano and Essien.

Steven Gerrard can play that role against lesser teams and will add another attacking dimension to our game (like the run which lead to our 3rd goal omn Saturday).

Play Mascher against the best teams when we'll have to play a more disciplined game. I think I'd like to see the back of him next summer. It's going to be another Alonso'esque saga and I'm pretty sure Rafa will ship him to Barca for a hefty fee next summer. Get Essien instead, at least he can score and pass a football.

[MrMichael]

lucas interview

"I knew when Xabi left (for Real Madrid) that people would compare (us) but anyone who knows football knows I am not the same player as Xabi," he told reporters at Anfield.

who the fcuk is comparing ???a little praise from rafa for his lovechild and it has gone to his head.deluded!

Oh seriously though, you're just wumming now, how about actually engaging with some of the more constructive discussion in the thread instead? You're just reading what you want into that rather than what he's actually said.

He was selected in the position Alonso vacated for the first few games. Most of our fans who lamented Xabi's passing and slag Lucas off are comparing the two (ie that Lucas is nowhere near as good). Its obvious and inevitable, and what he said was probably in response to a question from a journo specifically about that. He quite flagrantly doesn't mean he's filling Xabi's shoes, and even says so himself.

Get a grip

[Craig_H]

First of all, this season Lucas is winning more tackles than Mascherano, fact.

Lets look at it from a different angle Craig. Rafa picks players on form Lucas is on form and Mascherano clearly isnt on form

Did we actually miss Mascherano against Burnley. In a word....no. I you think so, I would like to know, how when and where, especially as Lucas was in all probability MOM

Everbody is assuming the Aquilani will be replacing Lucas in the side, I dont think it is a clear cut as that

Am I winding you up?

Well that is for me to know and you to continue wondering about

I have to keep wondering

I'm not sure if Rafa picks based on form though. If he did, then there wouldnt be an issue with players playing well and then being dropped the next game, regardless of how they'd done. That's something that is often seen as a hallmark of Rafa's selection policy, something which Gerrard and Carragher's books also mention.

As for Burnley, we didnt miss Mascher no, because his role is designed to neutralise opposition threat and frankly, Burnley offered none.

I'm not sure how you can pick Lucas as MOM, that's harsh on Benayoun somewhat.

What are the tackling stats for Lucas and Mascher? I'm not disputing the 'fact' you mentioned, i'd just be interested in the numbers if you have them to hand?

[Craig_H]

Steven Gerrard can play that role against lesser teams and will add another attacking dimension to our game (like the run which lead to our 3rd goal omn Saturday).

Play Mascher against the best teams when we'll have to play a more disciplined game. I think I'd like to see the back of him next summer. It's going to be another Alonso'esque saga and I'm pretty sure Rafa will ship him to Barca for a hefty fee next summer. Get Essien instead, at least he can score and pass a football.

I disagree. Whilst i agree that the need for DM protection is less in such games, i'd still have it there to keep the solidity should it be needed.

I dont think you need 2 strikers AND an attacking CM AND a holding midfielder who'll also burst forward as you suggest with Gerrard playing that role.

Furthermore, if you're nominating a CM pair of Gerrard and Lucas, it'd be Gerrard i would choose as the more advanced of the pair, making forward runs into the box - not Lucas.

[dww]

I have no problem with Kuyt as a striker, in a pair. On Saturday, he seemed to be part playing upfront and partly off Torres. Or even Yossi off Torres, in a 4411 kinda thing. No probs with that.

I dont know if you saw 'Super Sunday, the Last Word' and as loathe as i am to say this, but Andy Gray was spot on with what he said about our system against 'lesser' sides at Anfield.

I'm not criticising the selection against Burnley mind, we won 4-0 so that's that. Then again, we played a four man midfield and Gerrard in CM didnt we?

I see no point in two protective CMs at home to relegation fodder and i think it takes away from our attacking threat, partly helping to contribute to those pesky 0-0 draws last year.

Three separate but related points:

Lucas didn't really play as a second deep defensive midfielder against Villa but was obviously more advanced. This admittedly created it's own problems as Villa counter attacked with relative ease.

The way I see a 4-2-3-1 is that if you have the opportunity to attack people it gives you the maximim flexibility of which players you use to attack. The two CMs can cover either fullbacks over lapping both side or a Cb carrying the ball forward. They also have the potential to attack or at least progress the ball themselves. The problem for me has been that we have not got the balance right about who attacks and who covers - too often we have had both fullbacks attacking and no out balls. Last season I feel we had a great balance of players for this in many ways but lacked really attacking fullbacks. The loss of Alonso and addition of more progressive fullbacks has altered the balance needed in midfield as we need more play making from the three behind Torres and the fullbacks require more cover.
I think we should see whether we can improve the link between defense and attack in the 4-2-3-1 as I feel we can be just as effective now as we were in the latter stages of last season but we need people to adapt.

I think the Burnley game gave a false sense of how well Gerrard would do deeper in midfield against the lesser teams as they basically ceded the battle but still tried to play football - allowing Gerrard to play as much as he liked high up the pitch and us to advance the backline to compensate. Against teams who 'park the bus' that will be less easy. It is however good to have more than one option.

I don't see that we really altered formation for the Burnley match by the way - I just think that 4-2-3-1 is flexible as a game plan and to some degree that a set of numbers is an inadequate way to describe a tactical plan.

[Craig_H]

Not true. Two at most. Mascher is a destroyer, that's all. I don't trust him when he's having to dictate the play and pass the ball out of defence.

You have destroyers, play-dictators and attacking thrust goalscoring CMs. Obviously i'm being general, but broadly speaking, those are the main roles for CM.

Mascher's the best destroyer, Aquilani's the best playmaker and Gerrard's the best attacking one.

Lucas is the typical 'jack of all trades, master of none'. He's not better at the destroyer part than Mascher, not better at playmaking than Aquilani and not better at being a CM threat than Gerrard.

That's where i'm coming from.

[Guest]

I disagree. Whilst i agree that the need for DM protection is less in such games, i'd still have it there to keep the solidity should it be needed.

I dont think you need 2 strikers AND an attacking CM AND a holding midfielder who'll also burst forward as you suggest with Gerrard playing that role.

Furthermore, if you're nominating a CM pair of Gerrard and Lucas, it'd be Gerrard i would choose as the more advanced of the pair, making forward runs into the box - not Lucas.

Gerrard is 29 and I'm sure Rafa will try to curb his attacking instincts and convert him into a more rounded/defensively minded midfielder as soon as he finds a perfect foil for Torres upfront, someone like David Villa for example (not meaning it has to be Villa - but you get my point).

I think that's where, long term, that we'll see Gerrard playing. It's simply because of the fact that sooner rather than later, he's going to lose his pace and his power, and that his energy will need conserving.

[Guest]

You have destroyers, play-dictators and attacking thrust goalscoring CMs. Obviously i'm being general, but broadly speaking, those are the main roles for CM.

Mascher's the best destroyer, Aquilani's the best playmaker and Gerrard's the best attacking one.

Lucas is the typical 'jack of all trades, master of none'. He's not better at the destroyer part than Mascher, not better at playmaking than Aquilani and not better at being a CM threat than Gerrard.

That's where i'm coming from.

I'm sure there's more than meets the eye with Lucas. He just needs to develop a meaner personality and have more belief in himself.