THE Lucas thread

[dww]

I dont think it's necessary to 'justify' an opinion of Lucas not quite being good enough. With some players, they just ARE brilliant and it goes beyond opinion - it's fact, for example, that Gerrard isnt anywhere near ****. Suggesting he was, would clearly be foolish.

Not so, with Lucas.

Surely the nature of discussion on a forum is to exchange ideas and opinions. There is no way that someone just saying I don't rate him can help inform you - if that was the idea then we might as well just have a vote and be done with it.

[Assassin]

Depends on the system though MrM.

Arguably, Lucas is taking the place of a Benayoun or Riera who, in a 442 with SG back in CM where he should be until Aquilani is fit, would/should be playing.

All 3 of them started the last game

[Craig_H]

Surely the nature of discussion on a forum is to exchange ideas and opinions. There is no way that someone just saying I don't rate him can help inform you - if that was the idea then we might as well just have a vote and be done with it.

In this specific case though dww, does anyone really need it spelt out as to why someone might not think Lucas is good enough to be a 1st teamer?

And if so, isnt that a particular circle we've all gone round and round on before?

I think it's fairly obvious and if it's not, it's certainly been made clear before by loads of posters. Whether someone agrees with such a critique or not, i'm sure that virtually everyone, in their heart of hearts, knows WHY Lucas may not be rated especially highly.

[Craig_H]

All 3 of them started the last game

Obviously, i was taking it as a given that Mascherano would ordinarily not be injured/jetlagged, and would therefore be playing. Smart arse.

[Assassin]

Obviously, i was taking it as a given that Mascherano would ordinarily not be injured/jetlagged, and would therefore be playing. Smart arse.

Its a tough one to call as Lucas is actually outperforming Mascherano. At this point in time I don't see that Mascherano is guarenteed a starting place

[Guest]

Surely the nature of discussion on a forum is to exchange ideas and opinions. There is no way that someone just saying I don't rate him can help inform you - if that was the idea then we might as well just have a vote and be done with it.

Mate, an idea has been germinating in my mind for a long time. Why don't we try, as an experiment, to create a Craig_H alter ego, and lock both of them in the same thread?

[MrMichael]

Depends on the system though MrM.

Arguably, Lucas is taking the place of a Benayoun or Riera who, in a 442 with SG back in CM where he should be until Aquilani is fit, would/should be playing.

We can't play 4-4-2, we only have one real striker remember?

Nah, seriously though, I never like it when Rafa starts messing with the formation at the start of a season. 4-2-3-1 suits the majority of our players best and when everyone's fit that will be what we go with most of the time. With the benefit of hindsight dropping Gerrard back, Benny in his position and not playing Lucas in the Spurs game would have been a good idea, but then so would not playing Babel have been. However I can see why he did it, and the whole team underperformed on that day (and against Villa), not just Lucas.

Personally I'm much happier with Lucas playing when/if Mascher is unavailable, than them playing together. I had no issue with him playing against Burnley, or in the way the team was setup on that day. I think Rafa has now shown that he is prepared to drop Gerrard back, and I can imagine him playing a 3 of Masch, Gerrard and Benny quite often until Aquilani is back. I also think he may consider Aurelio in that position too. But with CL games starting Lucas is going to have to play sometimes, and I really don't think he will be keeping many out of the team when he does.

[Craig_H]

Its a tough one to call as Lucas is actually outperforming Mascherano. At this point in time I don't see that Mascherano is guarenteed a starting place

This isnt aimed solely at you, but i think we've reached a crossroads here.

Either people are:

1) Clueless
2) On a windup

Or i'm just missing a chasm of a point.

But....

You're seriously saying you'd pick Lucas ahead of Mascherano???

Really?????

I must be going loopy.

[RedReet]

In this specific case though dww, does anyone really need it spelt out as to why someone might not think Lucas is good enough to be a 1st teamer?

And if so, isnt that a particular circle we've all gone round and round on before?

I think it's fairly obvious and if it's not, it's certainly been made clear before by loads of posters. Whether someone agrees with such a critique or not, i'm sure that virtually everyone, in their heart of hearts, knows WHY Lucas may not be rated especially highly.

But why feel the need to keep going on about it if you aren't gonna elaborate, and in this case bump and older thread and not actually add something constructive to it?

[dww]

In this specific case though dww, does anyone really need it spelt out as to why someone might not think Lucas is good enough to be a 1st teamer?

And if so, isnt that a particular circle we've all gone round and round on before?

I think it's fairly obvious and if it's not, it's certainly been made clear before by loads of posters. Whether someone agrees with such a critique or not, i'm sure that virtually everyone, in their heart of hearts, knows WHY Lucas may not be rated especially highly.

Would it make it less circular if all we said was "Lucas is good"/"Lucas sucks"?

The point is they might want to know if they observe the same things and weight them differently or that there are somethings that escaped their observations.

Last season someone pointed out for example the number of clumsy fouls Lucas gives away to me in dangerous places. I hadn't really noticed. before. I now tend to agree although at the time I think he got a slightly rough deal as the foul often got given because he ended up on the floor largely due to his lack of physical presence. This season though he has made a few similar mistakes (although he has been far from alone).

I genuinely think that for example against Spurs he was one of our better players and people criticised him when realistically there was little that was his fault and certainly not his fault alone. In general play this season I think he has been a very solid performer for us who has made a few (costly) mistakes. the question to me is whether they are something inherent in his game or the sort of bad luck that tends to happen to players trying to do too much and with a possible lack of confidence at times.

I'm interested in hearing if anyone has an argument that alters how I see things or gives me extra insight. Just hearing that you don't rate someone doesn't do that and neither does trying to force the conversation into a series of binary choices.

[Craig_H]

We can't play 4-4-2, we only have one real striker remember?

Nah, seriously though, I never like it when Rafa starts messing with the formation at the start of a season. 4-2-3-1 suits the majority of our players best and when everyone's fit that will be what we go with most of the time. With the benefit of hindsight dropping Gerrard back, Benny in his position and not playing Lucas in the Spurs game would have been a good idea, but then so would not playing Babel have been. However I can see why he did it, and the whole team underperformed on that day (and against Villa), not just Lucas.

Personally I'm much happier with Lucas playing when/if Mascher is unavailable, than them playing together. I had no issue with him playing against Burnley, or in the way the team was setup on that day. I think Rafa has now shown that he is prepared to drop Gerrard back, and I can imagine him playing a 3 of Masch, Gerrard and Benny quite often until Aquilani is back. I also think he may consider Aurelio in that position too. But with CL games starting Lucas is going to have to play sometimes, and I really don't think he will be keeping many out of the team when he does.

I have no problem with Kuyt as a striker, in a pair. On Saturday, he seemed to be part playing upfront and partly off Torres. Or even Yossi off Torres, in a 4411 kinda thing. No probs with that.

I dont know if you saw 'Super Sunday, the Last Word' and as loathe as i am to say this, but Andy Gray was spot on with what he said about our system against 'lesser' sides at Anfield.

I'm not criticising the selection against Burnley mind, we won 4-0 so that's that. Then again, we played a four man midfield and Gerrard in CM didnt we?

I see no point in two protective CMs at home to relegation fodder and i think it takes away from our attacking threat, partly helping to contribute to those pesky 0-0 draws last year.

[Craig_H]

But why feel the need to keep going on about it if you aren't gonna elaborate, and in this case bump and older thread and not actually add something constructive to it?

How have i bumped an older thread? All i'm doing is replying to specific posts aimed at me, so it's hardly me that's 'going on about it'.

[flyboy]

lucas interview

"I knew when Xabi left (for Real Madrid) that people would compare (us) but anyone who knows football knows I am not the same player as Xabi," he told reporters at Anfield.

who the fcuk is comparing ???what a joke .a little praise from rafa for his lovechild and it has gone to his head.deluded!

[Guest]

I have no problem with Kuyt as a striker, in a pair. On Saturday, he seemed to be part playing upfront and partly off Torres. Or even Yossi off Torres, in a 4411 kinda thing. No probs with that.

I dont know if you saw 'Super Sunday, the Last Word' and as loathe as i am to say this, but Andy Gray was spot on with what he said about our system against 'lesser' sides at Anfield.

I'm not criticising the selection against Burnley mind, we won 4-0 so that's that. Then again, we played a four man midfield and Gerrard in CM didnt we?

I see no point in two protective CMs at home to relegation fodder and i think it takes away from our attacking threat, partly helping to contribute to those pesky 0-0 draws last year.

That's a good point. That's why playing Mascherano isn't a good option. Play Lucas and Stevie G/Aqui-La-Ni instead, at home against cannon fodder.

Not sure I've been impressed at Mascher dictating our play since Alonso's gone. Apart from one match, against Stoke, he's been very average.

[dww]

This isnt aimed solely at you, but i think we've reached a crossroads here.

Either people are:

1) Clueless
2) On a windup

Or i'm just missing a chasm of a point.

But....

You're seriously saying you'd pick Lucas ahead of Mascherano???

Really?????

I must be going loopy.

On current form I don't think it is as stupid a proposition as you make it sound. Mascher is a top player and will no doubt prove it as the season progresses but he has been poor so far this season and I don't think that is true of Lucas.