THE Lucas thread

[dww]

I'm not sure the fault lies with Lucas in the games I have seen (or at least not totally and often not in the ways people accuse him of).

I think there has been a problem for the whole team adapting to playing a slightly different style in which the CMs are more about moving the ball quickly and safely and are not looking quickly for penetrative balls. This means that there is more emphasis on the three behind Torres to act as play makers but at the same time they are liable to have more room to work in and should have more support from the fullbacks in terms of getting width.

The problems at the minute to me seem to be a lack of leaders of the right kind. At the back we need someone who leads by example aerially giving others confidence that they can concentrate on their limited job as a lot of the more dangerous balls will be cut out. It was a problem last season as neither Agger nor Skrtel seem to take responsibility in general and in the air seems the area they get most exposed for it. In midfield we miss a calming influence like Alonso - when things go against us a bit we seem to panic and rush things (Villa after the first goal is a prime example we were all over them IMO until then, even if we gave them the odd chance on the break, and then everyone lost their discipline).

It is this lack of authority which I think is Lucas's biggest weakness at present.

We badly need Torres and Gerrard to step it up a bit as we are in need of a boost to confidence and when those two play well we can feel like we are invincible and a few games in a row that we won even without playing well I think would do wonders for the team/squad.

[Neil Young]

I'm not sure the fault lies with Lucas in the games I have seen (or at least not totally and often not in the ways people accuse him of).

I think there has been a problem for the whole team adapting to playing a slightly different style in which the CMs are more about moving the ball quickly and safely and are not looking quickly for penetrative balls. This means that there is more emphasis on the three behind Torres to act as play makers but at the same time they are liable to have more room to work in and should have more support from the fullbacks in terms of getting width.

The problems at the minute to me seem to be a lack of leaders of the right kind. At the back we need someone who leads by example aerially giving others confidence that they can concentrate on their limited job as a lot of the more dangerous balls will be cut out. It was a problem last season as neither Agger nor Skrtel seem to take responsibility in general and in the air seems the area they get most exposed for it. In midfield we miss a calming influence like Alonso - when things go against us a bit we seem to panic and rush things (Villa after the first goal is a prime example we were all over them IMO until then, even if we gave them the odd chance on the break, and then everyone lost their discipline).

It is this lack of authority which I think is Lucas's biggest weakness at present.

We badly need Torres and Gerrard to step it up a bit as we are in need of a boost to confidence and when those two play well we can feel like we are invincible and a few games in a row that we won even without playing well I think would do wonders for the team/squad.

I said elsewhere I think leadership is an issue at present and that perhaps we miss Alonso more for that than his passing.

Sorry, that last bit makes him sound like he's dead but you know what I mean.

[DannyMan2006]

I'm not sure the fault lies with Lucas in the games I have seen (or at least not totally and often not in the ways people accuse him of).

I think there has been a problem for the whole team adapting to playing a slightly different style in which the CMs are more about moving the ball quickly and safely and are not looking quickly for penetrative balls. This means that there is more emphasis on the three behind Torres to act as play makers but at the same time they are liable to have more room to work in and should have more support from the fullbacks in terms of getting width.

The problems at the minute to me seem to be a lack of leaders of the right kind. At the back we need someone who leads by example aerially giving others confidence that they can concentrate on their limited job as a lot of the more dangerous balls will be cut out. It was a problem last season as neither Agger nor Skrtel seem to take responsibility in general and in the air seems the area they get most exposed for it. In midfield we miss a calming influence like Alonso - when things go against us a bit we seem to panic and rush things (Villa after the first goal is a prime example we were all over them IMO until then, even if we gave them the odd chance on the break, and then everyone lost their discipline).

It is this lack of authority which I think is Lucas's biggest weakness at present.

We badly need Torres and Gerrard to step it up a bit as we are in need of a boost to confidence and when those two play well we can feel like we are invincible and a few games in a row that we won even without playing well I think would do wonders for the team/squad.

I don't see any problem with winning high balls at the back. I don't see that we have conceded any goals from this. If you're talking about set pieces, then that is a team effort and needs to be worked on.

On the subject of the team not developing to the new style of play Lucas brings, I agree they have not. But Lucas has really helped himself either. He seems to be taking up the same positions as Alonso, without the ability to take the ball on and move it on.

And yes a lack of authority is a problem, it would do the team a lot of good if Lucas was to step up and start demanding the ball more. But if he doesn't think he's good enough to do anything with the ball this will not happen.

If Lucas was to get forward more he would maybe make up for short coming in other areas of our play by creating problems further up the pitch. But he's not doing that enough. It was Rafas idea that when Aquilani came in he would adapt a position higher up the pitch. That's what Lucas needs to start doing.

[DannyMan2006]

From John Doe in the season assessment:

The Lucas conundrum

Like it or not, Lucas will have a key role in our title challenge this year. He's getting thrown into the deep end, and he could sink or swim. His critics, including myself, point out to his one glaring weakness: He just doesn't stand out. He's pretty decent in all aspects of the game (and he's surprisingly good in the air), but there just isn't anything that makes him exceptional. He lacks assertion, seems incapable of confidently holding our midfield together, and he's also a bit erratic defensively.

Lucas is also the most criticized player in our squad and seems to have little rapport with the Liverpool fans, a difficult position for any young player to find himself in.
But the fact is that Rafa sees in him something many of us don't, and it's those small details that evade the spectators at home and the fans at the stadium.

I can give one example of such a case. Two years ago, a 23 year old Darren Fletcher was one of the most ridiculed players amongst Man United fans. He was labeled as useless, rubbish, and a Championship player at best who didn't stand out in any aspect of the game. Nobody understood why Ferguson persisted with him when others gave up long before. Today, Darren Fletcher is a first team player and is seen as one by the vast majority of Man United fans. I'll be damned if Lucas, through all his faults, is not at least as talented as him.

There are positive signs of maturity in Lucas. During pre-season he has done okay without standing out, but he was one of our best performers against Atletico Madrid and looked like finally imposing himself on the game. If he can continue his progress in the role he was brought on for in the first place, as a creative attacking midfielder and not a defensive midfielder, playing week in week out, he might surprise a few people, and we'll have a very good problem when Aquilani returns.

Needless to say, the question of Lucas will be answered very soon and it is crucial that he's able to hold his own at an early part of the season. A struggling Lucas could ruin the entire shape of our attack, forcing Gerrard to drop deeper to help with "playmaking" while making him less of a danger to the opposition. A confident Lucas who's capable of carrying the burden and telling Gerrard: "Stay forward, I've got this!" is what I want to see this season. I also never want him to grow his hair again.

A good foresight I think, this was made after the Atletico game. Worryingly it seems all the fears John Doe had have happened with regards Lucas. As he says in the last paragraph, Lucas needs to stand up and be counted.

[dww]

I don't see any problem with winning high balls at the back. I don't see that we have conceded any goals from this. If you're talking about set pieces, then that is a team effort and needs to be worked on.

I really do and have for a while. Set pieces are a particular example where the problem is made worse. I think the problem is that we don't have any good defensive headers in midfield and neither Skrtel or Carragher are imposing aerially which means that the job is harder for each individual. I think our new Greek signing will hopefully help this.

Also I think the collision between Skrtel and Carragher was a symptom of the same problem of a general lack of faith in one another to deal with that sort of high ball.

On the subject of the team not developing to the new style of play Lucas brings, I agree they have not. But Lucas has really helped himself either. He seems to be taking up the same positions as Alonso, without the ability to take the ball on and move it on.

I think that is slightly unfair in the first game people accused him of doing too much like the Mascheranbo role. He has to my mind always shown himself for the ball and generally made good positional decisions - apart from when the whole team has become stretched when it is hard for someone who bases their game on quick short passes to be in the 'right place'.

And yes a lack of authority is a problem, it would do the team a lot of good if Lucas was to step up and start demanding the ball more. But if he doesn't think he's good enough to do anything with the ball this will not happen.

If Lucas was to get forward more he would maybe make up for short coming in other areas of our play by creating problems further up the pitch. But he's not doing that enough. It was Rafas idea that when Aquilani came in he would adapt a position higher up the pitch. That's what Lucas needs to start doing.

I think the idea he doesn't think he is good enough to do anything with the ball is the wrong impression. He will keep the ball and has shown on a good few occasions that he can spot a run. The problem has been that at present we don't make enough runs and Gerrard, Kuyt and Benayoun are not moving to make play a little deeper often enough which certainly Gerrard and Benayoun are capable of doing.

I'm not sure that Lucas does need to do that. I think our attacking players need to use the added space they now hove better and we need to look to our fullbacks more quickly.

[DannyMan2006]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree dww. It seems we are both seeing things during games that the other is not.

Not suprising really as nothing is really clear cut in football.

[dww]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree dww. It seems we are both seeing things during games that the other is not.

Not suprising really as nothing is really clear cut in football.

Aye. Fair play. I think the sharing of views is interesting and will look out for different things in future games as a result.

[DannyMan2006]

Aye. Fair play. I think the sharing of views is interesting and will look out for different things in future games as a result.

[DannyMan2006]

I should add on this thread that I think Lucas is a decent player who can become a very good one. I think he is more than capable of filling in for our more regular midfielders when our team is firing on all cylinders, and he also has enough ability to turn around his fortunes thus far. We have four very winnable games and I have no doubts Lucas will start the lot.

I am of the opinion we will win those games and as such our team will start to look more confident and more cohesive. I think Lucas can contribute towards that improvement. I think the real challenge for Lucas will come when we play Chelsea at the Bridge.

[flyboy]

rafa bigging up lucas again.FFS its just fcuking burnley.the fact that he feels to praise lucas at every pathetic opportunity available shows that most think lucas he isnt up to it whereas he doesnt. ill like to see him talk about lucas when the competition is stiffer.

[Shaggy]

Kin ell man don't you get tired of only posting about one topic?

[flyboy]

Kin ell man don't you get tired of only posting about one topic?

listen here its not a new thread..i'm just commenting on rafa and oh yes i'll always think he is ****

[DannyMan2006]

rafa bigging up lucas again.FFS its just fcuking burnley.the fact that he feels to praise lucas at every pathetic opportunity available shows that most think lucas he isnt up to it whereas he doesnt. ill like to see him talk about lucas when the competition is stiffer.

He had a good game against Man Utd at Old Trafford, don't get much tougher than that.

In fairness I think there has been a lot of pressure placed on the shoulders of Lucas this season. He is not a player capable of linking defence and attack at the top level and of course neither is his more regular partner, Javier Mascherano. That is why we have struggled so far this season.

My answer all along has been to put Gerrard in the CM and despite what many on here have said previously about this topic I think Gerrard proved my point yesterday. Obviously when Aquilani is fit and if he is a success Gerrard can then revert to type.

Lucas is a player who can come in and do a job, but not one who I think is good enough to get in our team on a regular basis. e did well yesterday but I would of course have Javier in ahead of him.

[flyboy]

one game and then he doesnt turn up for the rest. hardly a yardstick for anything.

he'll probably do the job against piss poor teams but anything other than these teams i agree with you that only gerrard and mascherano should be the midfield pairing.

until then i hope rafa saves these comments on lucas for the blind

[DannyMan2006]

one game and then he doesnt turn up for the rest. hardly a yardstick for anything.

he'll probably do the job against piss poor teams but anything other than these teams i agree with you that only gerrard and mascherano should be the midfield pairing.

He's also had other good games, Newcatsle being the one most commonly agreed upon on these forums. I only said Man Utd as you questioned his contribution against the better teams.

My opinion on Lucas is that he is a young promising player who has enough ability to be involved in the first team set up, but not one who I feel is good enough to be relied upon in our engine room. The way a game pans out is dictated by the central midfielders and continuing with my analogy they set the tempo and speed of a game and need the ability to slip through the gears and elavate our play. Whilst both Lucas and Mascher are effective at putting the brakes on the opposition I feel the attacking play of Liverpool stalls when both are required to get attacks flowing freely.

When they play together is becoming very noticable that Gerrard is having to drop back meaning a front attacking two becomes a one man band. Torres is of course a marked man and the space he leaves for team mates needs to be exploited to bring benefit to the team. Yesterday Torres was pretty much a bystander in the game but he attracted defenders attentions and left Yossi space to wonder about in and cause havock.

A fully fit and flying Torres is capable of winning games on his own, but he is out of sorts so far this season and thus needs support. That has not been readily available this season due to Gerrard straying from his post in a vain attempt to get play moving. If Gerrard starts in a position where he keeps straying too and we put another player behind Torres this once again brings balance to our starting XI. Which is sadly lacking when Mascherano and Lucas are the first choice pairing.