THE Lucas thread

[The Erectile Banana]

I would suggest he was meaning that he continues to play and praise him rather than that he bought him was the criteria being used. Your argument still applies, however it is clear that a renown top level football coaches opinion should probably be given more weight than that of the average forum poster.*

There is an equally invalid argument strongly implied by flyboy that anyone who feels that Lucas is contributing is 'blind'.

*Except Stephen Staunton.

[Assassin]

Rafa, or thousands (tens of hundreds of thousands) of fans who don't rate him. It's a tough call. We see him only in matches; and he's not very good. Rafa sees him everyday and I suspect he shows enough in training to suggest he is worthy of a place. I am also guessing that he is not reproducing his training form in matches. Rafa may have been justified in opting for him if he thought he had more to offer, but the fact that he hasn't come good and we're in a situation where he almost has to play, well that is a result of Rafa's judgement.

FFS, if you and others were to look at him in a less than critical eye, you would see that Lucas is performing. Microanalysing his every move on the pitch is not the way forward. To date Lucas has been our best performer since the squad got back togethjer after the summer break.

Try giving the guy the break he deserves. Whilst you are critically microanalysing his game, you might notice how he has beefed up in order to compete better. It is no mystery why the opposition players are bouncing off him this year. he is bigger, stronger and better than last year.

I really hate that argument, with a passion.

Every single failed/sacked useless manager there's ever been in the Premier League has 'greater footballing knowledge' than posters on a forum - and it meant squat diddly, because they failed and got sacked.

Rafa also bought Dossena, and he's been dreadful. So it's not beyond feasibility that Rafa can get it wrong too. The fact that Rafa bought a player isnt evidence that the player's any good.

...and I really hate the arguement you use here in bold. Football managers are specialists in ther fields. Like wise presumably you are in your field (what do you do?). Likewise Football managers might have some thoughts on how you perform and work, but it does not make them more qualified or educated to be better than you at what you do? I like your opinions on football, but occasionally, like this one you are wide of the mark

With regard to Dossena, Babel, Voronin our who ever else you want to add to the list, if Rafa sees he has made a mistake they are gone quickly. In todays economical climate these players might have been dispatched. Howerver, Rafa probably knows if he sells the funds will not be available for re-use, so then he just keeps the devils he knows.

[The Birdman]

I still think Lucas is a dam sight better than most posters on here give him credit for, that is because he is part of the team that does the un-noticed, hard work allowing others to go and be expansive.
'Water Carrier' was how I think Deschamps was once referred to (By Cantona??)and while I'm not suggesting Lucas is as good as DD was he is a vital component of our team.

[Guest]

Rafa, or thousands (tens of hundreds of thousands) of fans who don't rate him. It's a tough call. We see him only in matches; and he's not very good. Rafa sees him everyday and I suspect he shows enough in training to suggest he is worthy of a place. I am also guessing that he is not reproducing his training form in matches. Rafa may have been justified in opting for him if he thought he had more to offer, but the fact that he hasn't come good and we're in a situation where he almost has to play, well that is a result of Rafa's judgement.

Tens of thousand Liverpool fans over a fanbase of a hundred million, you're having a laugh.

Lucas is a very good player lacking in confidence. He's maybe not a world beater but I guess that's what you want from every single Liverpool player. It's a slightly deluded way to look at things.

You're one of the few who have a misconception of Lucas, even before seeing him actually play football matches. No matter how good he's played, you're not going to back up the lad. This is tiring FFS, but to be fair it's not only you who's at fault for this.

It's not because of Lucas that we're 5th in the league, but more because we've lacked something collectively.

[Guest]

I still think Lucas is a dam sight better than most posters on here give him credit for, that is because he is part of the team that does the un-noticed, hard work allowing others to go and be expansive.
'Water Carrier' was how I think Deschamps was once referred to (By Cantona??)and while I'm not suggesting Lucas is as good as DD was he is a vital component of our team.

Lucas rarely loses the ball. He's very economical in what he does and he's also an attacking threat because he actually make runs into the penalty box, something which Alonso rarely did.

[dww]

I know that this is the sort of example that people will shoot down but none the less I think it is pertinent to discussing Lucas. I was watching the Sky and MOTD analysis of the Villa/Brum game and it was notable how often there were players in space possibly on the opposite wing which were not found. One of the features of the Burnley game for me was how in the centre of midfield we always kept the ball moving and did find the men in space and kept the ball. It's not always about the direct assists but allowing the team to retain possession and attack where the opponents are weakest.

[Craig_H]

I would suggest he was meaning that he continues to play and praise him rather than that he bought him was the criteria being used. Your argument still applies, however it is clear that a renown top level football coaches opinion should probably be given more weight than that of the average forum poster.

There is an equally invalid argument strongly implied by flyboy that anyone who feels that Lucas is contributing is 'blind'.

I dont think Lucas is without contribution. And i agree with your point about a top level manager and his opinion. I just dont like the way it's used as an apparent argument winner, to simply say that the manager 'knows more than you', and therefore implying that as a poster, we cant disagree with the manager and be correct.

Houllier was more qualified than anyone on here and also very highly thought of in the higher levels of football. And i dont need anyone to help me come to the conclusion that HE bought some absolute turkeys. And persevered with them far too long as well.

[Craig_H]

...and I really hate the arguement you use here in bold. Football managers are specialists in ther fields. Like wise presumably you are in your field (what do you do?). Likewise Football managers might have some thoughts on how you perform and work, but it does not make them more qualified or educated to be better than you at what you do? I like your opinions on football, but occasionally, like this one you are wide of the mark

With regard to Dossena, Babel, Voronin our who ever else you want to add to the list, if Rafa sees he has made a mistake they are gone quickly. In todays economical climate these players might have been dispatched. Howerver, Rafa probably knows if he sells the funds will not be available for re-use, so then he just keeps the devils he knows.

In fairness though, you're not comparing like for like. Rafa's field is one where the details are studied and followed by absolutely millions of people world wide, on a huge scale. People in their billions follow football and some of us do so obsessively.

So from that point of view, there's really no valid comparison between that, and the notion of Rafa having an opinion about the decisions i make within my working environment, because unlike me with football, Rafa doesnt spend countless hours of his time viewing or studying the details of my work.

[Craig_H]

Tens of thousand Liverpool fans over a fanbase of a hundred million, you're having a laugh.

On what grounds are you making the assumption that those who dont rate Lucas are in the minority of tens of thousands, out of a hundred million?

I can assure you, more matchgoing reds dont rate him than do, based on what i hear.

Lucas rarely loses the ball. He's very economical in what he does and he's also an attacking threat because he actually make runs into the penalty box, something which Alonso rarely did.

He also rarely plays a difficult pass. I'd probably not lose the ball much, if i just played 5 foot square balls under little or no pressure.

I havent seen many of these runs into the box, maybe we're watching different games.

If he makes regular surging runs into the box, you'd think his goal tally would be a little better, no? After all, isnt the idea of being an attacking threat, one whereby you either score or create goals? Otherwise, what's the point of 'attacking' if it leads to nothing?

[Assassin]

I just dont like the way it's used as an apparent argument winner, to simply say that the manager 'knows more than you', and therefore implying that as a poster, we cant disagree with the manager and be correct.

It was not posted as an arguement winner, it was posted as a fact. Rafeal Benitez and even gerrard Hollier know more about football than you do. Likewise, you will beyond doubt no more about your job than they do, unless you are a football manager

You can disagree, we all do, however, for people to portray themselves as right....doesnt wash when you look at the relative levels of expertise..

[Craig_H]

It was not posted as an arguement winner, it was posted as a fact. Rafeal Benitez and even gerrard Hollier know more about football than you do. Likewise, you will beyond doubt no more about your job than they do, unless you are a football manager

You can disagree, we all do, however, for people to portray themselves as right....doesnt wash when you look at the relative levels of expertise..

So in your opinion, none of us on here can ever disagree with a manager and be right, because they're more qualified?

If that's what you're suggesting, it's poppycock.

[Pacman]

I think Lucas is getting better and better and anyone who can't see this is blind. He's isn't the best player in the world but he is improving and played well against Burnley. He's only a kid and has shown great mental strength to be booed by his own fans yet still have the courage to go out and try again. Rafa bigging him up is what he should be doing like some have already posted but I also remember Stevie G saying Lucas is a good little player. People are entitled to their opinion but I'm sorry Mr Flyboy you or Rafa and Stevie G?????? Erm no contest.

[Craig_H]

I think Lucas is getting better and better and anyone who can't see this is blind. He's isn't the best player in the world but he is improving and played well against Burnley. He's only a kid and has shown great mental strength to be booed by his own fans yet still have the courage to go out and try again. Rafa bigging him up is what he should be doing like some have already posted but I also remember Stevie G saying Lucas is a good little player. People are entitled to their opinion but I'm sorry Mr Flyboy you or Rafa and Stevie G?????? Erm no contest.

I agree he is better than last season. Good to see.

He did alright against Burnley, but then, who wouldnt play alright at home to Burnley? Better examples are Newcastle and Man Utd away last year, where he was very good indeed, and better than i thought he was capable of. Consistency is now what's needed, and a tangible impact on a consistent basis.

As for Rafa and SG speaking highly of him - well, they would wouldnt they? That doesnt really prove a great deal in reality.

[Pacman]

I agree he is better than last season. Good to see.

He did alright against Burnley, but then, who wouldnt play alright at home to Burnley? Better examples are Newcastle and Man Utd away last year, where he was very good indeed, and better than i thought he was capable of. Consistency is now what's needed, and a tangible impact on a consistent basis.

As for Rafa and SG speaking highly of him - well, they would wouldnt they? That doesnt really prove a great deal in reality.

I agree Rafa needs speak highly of him but Stevie G could have kept his gob shut. He gets nothing out of bigging Lucas up. I think Stevie comes across as an honest lad. The press ask him a question he gives an honest answer and I don't think he would go out his way to state he rated Lucas if he didn't believe what he was saying.

Might be wrong like and there is still a lot of improvement needed but I remember when lots were slating Dirk and he's proved a lot of doubters wrong (not all of them but a lot).

[Craig_H]

As club captain, Stevie would see it as part of his duty too, to praise a youngster at a time when it is needed and could benefit both Lucas and the team. Gerrard isnt above a little mental-manipulation where necessary.

Kuyt's improvement has been absolutely immense, but i'm not sure about the 'proved wrong' theory. Doubters were stating that, at that time, he was poor - and he was. Now they're saying how he's improved, which he has.

I think people just comment on things as they happen to be at the time.

If Lucas improves to the point where he becomes a key part of the team, few would have a problem in acknowledging it. Those that do, would be agenda-driven idiots.