Rafa should be sacked....

[Parr_Zee]

Sorry is that the Crouch who couldn't stand to play second fiddle to Torres and annoyed fans by moaning about it, plus being the player that wasn't worth the £7-£8m we payed for him. Is it Keane, the player who couldn't hit the side of a barn when playing for us. I'm sure that the same Bellamy that most fans just plain and simply wanted rid of and wasn't good enough to wear the shirt of our beloved club. How fickle we are!

But you have to question the tactics when you consider that all 3 players scored plenty of goals before they were with us, and since they have left us.

[RoadEnd]

You'd have to be a complete and utter idiot to want the manager out, sorry but you simply have to be.

Once we spend the £25m + to get rid of Rafa and his backroom staff, and spend probably £5m more hiring another lot and commiting millions more over the next few years, how is this great new manager going to overhaul the squad, does he come with his own money tree in his garden? We spent **** all net in the summer, a new manager will have even less than that, after paying off Rafa and potentially missing CL football our loss of money would be a complete disaster.

People should think. We cant get a new manager then give him 50m in January to start building his new squad.

Be very careful what you wish for. Because rather than get a new/better manager in and go forward its more likely we'd get a worse manager in and go backwards.

Correct

The fact is that we don't have the money to sack Rafa and pay off the rest of his contract (unless someone can dig out a video of him snorting cocaine off Jordans arse)

[Big Dave]

I'm not sure why those fans should be considered reasonable because they sit back and say 'we'll win just be quiet' all the time when things keep being pointed out? We were only in the running once, and thats pretty much because the other teams screwed up more then usual. Majority of Rafa's buys have turned out to be complete crap. When we bought Ngog I said he was a complete waste of money and got hounded over it by these reasonable fans. You arent allowed to say anything slightly negative or its all 'you're a crap fan' speeches by the faithful bullies.

I'm not saying kick Benitez out. I'm saying I expect alot better after he's been here for this many years. When players under perform for a while you usually bench them. But theres some who never get benched. Thats a MASSIVE flaw. Sticking with players who are bad but hoping they'll come good. Thats what Houllier did and everyone got frustrated. Yet its ok for Benitez to do it? Why, because he's our current manager and all is forgiven UNTIL he leaves?

Again not saying fire him. But I was never too impressed when they first hired him to begin with. I wanted a more attacking mindset for our manager. And I also wanted one who will SCREAM a players ears off if he's being useless. Benitez is far too placid. You cant control players that way. Put the fear of god in them and they'll play out of their skins. Too many players in the team who just plod along like useless dead weight.

Heres the other thing that royally PISSES me off. Certain players are allowed to perform bad frequently this season because they had good seasons before. Yet Alonso who had good seasons, then bad seasons mainly due to injury, then returns with no injuries and hs an awesome season, he's more then welcomed by poeple on here to get sold because he didnt perform the previous season. We have certain players who perform once every 5 games year in year out. They never go. Its this sort of crap that infuriates me. Meanwhile every other teams supporters are laughing themselves stupid EVERY season, but we're supposed to keep our heads in the sand because its the Liverpool way. Bring me back Dalglish as manager and I'll be a happy man.

I think that's pretty unfair TBH. When he's been able to buy his first choice targets, he's done VERY well - Torres, Mascherano, Reina, Alonso, Kuyt, Agger, Lucas. When you think how many other targets he missed out on for various reasons, I really do wonder what we could have achieved by now.

Every manager buys their fair share of dross.

[vlahka]

Every manager doesnt always get their first choices. How often did Ferguson or others not get their first choice? However its the other players they got that still ended up performing well for the team. He was after Torres for ages and never got him. Technically he should have noone possible of scoring goals if we go by that theory with Benitez. He's bought players who WERE his first choice with majority of them turning out useless. Voronin is a perfect example. Very very poor player yet still here and being used after multiple seasons. Ngog, 1 goal in 19 games was enough for him to be purchased. I swear to god I believe our scouting network is as poor as our physios.

[Vermilion]

I think that's pretty unfair TBH. When he's been able to buy his first choice targets, he's done VERY well - Torres, Mascherano, Reina, Alonso, Kuyt, Agger, Lucas. When you think how many other targets he missed out on for various reasons, I really do wonder what we could have achieved by now.

Every manager buys their fair share of dross.

Exactly. He's also seen the money his team has earned on the pitch from performances go on paying interest payments to keep our two esteemed lords in place at the head of lfc.

He has to mainly settle for 2nd 3rd 4th choice targets in the market and see his main targets and players he'd want to buy join his rivals in europe and the prem.

I mean 10mill in the transfer market now buys us a 3mill player, because prices can be so inflated, we are 'expected' to constantly move in the same markets as sides like utd, chelsea, barca, madrid, etc, now citeh too as far as the quality of player we want to buy, but we have little or no chance when a rival club wants the same player.

I believe many managers would have walked, those that are not yes men anyway with no fight for the club.

The competition is immense now, thanks to clubs aquring cash from outside sources which has rocketed them above and beyond our transfer spending capabilities, even Arsenal have the stadium in place for future, should they ever decide to splash the cash, and lets remember the great Wenger hasn't done exactly brilliant since the 'new money' arrived in the prem, it's hard, and will get harder if we stay as we are as a club...which is imo in Limbo, stalemate ownership, no-one wants to get into bed with h&G and no-one will pay what they ask for the club as a whole, they have little cash, the club owes loads which hinders the transfer kitty, as i say..limbo.

[Exiled_red]

Every manager doesnt always get their first choices. How often did Ferguson or others not get their first choice? However its the other players they got that still ended up performing well for the team. He was after Torres for ages and never got him. Technically he should have noone possible of scoring goals if we go by that theory with Benitez. He's bought players who WERE his first choice with majority of them turning out useless. Voronin is a perfect example. Very very poor player yet still here and being used after multiple seasons. Ngog, 1 goal in 19 games was enough for him to be purchased. I swear to god I believe our scouting network is as poor as our physios.

That's true, however I believe there is an important difference, Man Utd tend not to get their first choice players because they are unavalable (i.e. their club doesn't want to sell them and they usually stay), or the player decides against moving to them in favour of a move somewhere else. We tend not to get out first choice players because we don't have the money. Our second or third choices which we end up getting aren't in the same pay bracket because we have to move down a level, Man Utd's second choices are generally in the same price bracket as their first.

[Big Dave]

Every manager doesnt always get their first choices. How often did Ferguson or others not get their first choice? However its the other players they got that still ended up performing well for the team. He was after Torres for ages and never got him. Technically he should have noone possible of scoring goals if we go by that theory with Benitez. He's bought players who WERE his first choice with majority of them turning out useless. Voronin is a perfect example. Very very poor player yet still here and being used after multiple seasons. Ngog, 1 goal in 19 games was enough for him to be purchased. I swear to god I believe our scouting network is as poor as our physios.

But look how many BIG money signings Man Utd have made over the years. Do you honestly believe we could outbid anyone to get our first choice signings? Ferguson has regularly spent more money on squad players than we have on first team players, and has spent £30m+ on several occasions, something we'll never do.

And I don't believe for 1 minute that Benitez was only after Voronin on a free FFS. Had the funds been available he would have at least attempted to sign David Villa. The only reason that Voronin is in our squad is that we don't have 2 coins to rub together

[hamshanks]

The thing is whether Rafa has made mistakes, bought well or badly or not, in the past is kind of irrelevant now. There's a bigger picture, this club is teetering on the edge of bankruptcy and Rafa has completely restructured the youth and reserve systems in the last couple of years.

So ask yourself who could come in and do a better job with no money (not talking about what he's spent in the past, I'm talking about the current reality) and then also have to completely restructure the team and club in their image and put us in a better position than we're in now? Who? Who? Who?

[Chrono]

I can't stand the financial argument. We spend a very good amount on players and have the largest squad in the league. Is the argument that without being able to buy £30-40m players on a whim we cannot compete? What about the likes of Tottenham who are getting much much more out of a weaker team? Get so fed up with the excuses for Rafa. He has had plenty of money, I don't want him gone but he needs to start getting far more from our team that he currently does. Every fan and club outside of our own knows that without Gerrard and Torres we are there for the taking

[vlahka]

Who says they have to restructure anything? What if what Benitez has done is just fine. Unless ofcourse its as shoddy as when Houllier restructured our youth setup into its previous supposed amazing state, which ended up being changed by benitez.

End of the day I'm not shocked if we dont beat UTD or chelsea etc because of who and what they can buy and spend. Its when we lose to the team BENEATH them who have had half of our transfer budgets each year, sometimes less. Thats when I start kicking crap about the house and pointing at useless signings. If a player isnt good enough DONT buy him. He ends up costing the club money from wages and also costing us on the field itself. I'm sure some of our reserves are far better then some of the first teamers we have. And if not that says something about our youth and reserves as majority of them were players Benitez specifically wanted.

I'll also put alot of blame on the playstyle of the team. Players coming and scoring nothing for us yet leave and do well elsewhere. Too conservative, too cautious, too SLOW in build up. I think Reina has the ball passed to him more often then all of our strikers put together.

[Guest]

I can't stand the financial argument. We spend a very good amount on players and have the largest squad in the league. Is the argument that without being able to buy £30-40m players on a whim we cannot compete? What about the likes of Tottenham who are getting much much more out of a weaker team? Get so fed up with the excuses for Rafa. He has had plenty of money, I don't want him gone but he needs to start getting far more from our team that he currently does. Every fan and club outside of our own knows that without Gerrard and Torres we are there for the taking

If I was a professional footballer earning that much money, I wouldn't need a manager telling me I should get more from my body. And it's also a fact that Rafa rarely boasts about how good his players are, preferring to find ways to continually improve.

Rafa is probably the one who should take all responsibility, but when you see Mascherano losing the ball at an increasing rate, then you have to question the player's character, not the manager.

[Exiled_red]

I can't stand the financial argument. We spend a very good amount on players and have the largest squad in the league. Is the argument that without being able to buy £30-40m players on a whim we cannot compete? What about the likes of Tottenham who are getting much much more out of a weaker team? Get so fed up with the excuses for Rafa. He has had plenty of money, I don't want him gone but he needs to start getting far more from our team that he currently does. Every fan and club outside of our own knows that without Gerrard and Torres we are there for the taking

The issue is we can't compete financially with the likes of Chelsea and Man Utd, their squads cost alot more to assemble than ours, this is a more accurate reflection of quality than how much has been spent over x years, because they started with a better squad than us. Our squad cost ~£130m to assemble, at present we have over £60m worth of it injured!

[dww]

I can't stand the financial argument. We spend a very good amount on players and have the largest squad in the league. Is the argument that without being able to buy £30-40m players on a whim we cannot compete? What about the likes of Tottenham who are getting much much more out of a weaker team? Get so fed up with the excuses for Rafa. He has had plenty of money, I don't want him gone but he needs to start getting far more from our team that he currently does. Every fan and club outside of our own knows that without Gerrard and Torres we are there for the taking

I think it is clear that Rafa needs to be doing better than he is right now but given a bit of perspective I think over his reign he has got a lot out of what he has been given. I don't think that the last comment was true last season - we were a very tough team to play with or without Torres and Gerrard. This season we have also managed to look poor against decent teams when they have played so I think that argument is a red herring.

I agree that the financial argument can also be unhelpful. We have to compete using the resources we have and last year we proved it is possible and Arsenal are in a similar position to us and are doing well this season.

The largest squad thing is another dead end for this discussion though as much of that was made up of the young players who we have bought rather than produced from the academy. It is hard to blame Rafa for doing that given the destinations of most of the academy products we have had. The first team squad is on a par with our competitors but has much less experience than most. It is this final point that leads potentially to a genuine criticism of Rafa - that he has not built the depth of squad that we need either through bringing on young players or buying in squad players likely to be happy with that role. I think the criticism has to be set against the fact that Rafa had to rebuild the squad and that he has done a decent job of using sales to fund upgrades.

I think there is only an argument for sacking Rafa at the minute if he has 'lost the dressing room'. Our squad obviously lacks confidence and that is making dealing with any problems much harder. The question is whether Rafa can change this around. I really feel he can.

[Chrono]

I'll also put alot of blame on the playstyle of the team. Players coming and scoring nothing for us yet leave and do well elsewhere. Too conservative, too cautious, too SLOW in build up. I think Reina has the ball passed to him more often then all of our strikers put together.

This is incredibly true. Everyone laughed when Pennant made a comment that Rafa makes them play like robots but it is completely true. Watching yesterdays game Lyon played with flair and not once did we do anything other than the standard regimental passing. Rafa clearly does not let players express themselves and I have no doubt in my mind that however useless Babel is he would have been a star under Wenger.

[FatTony]

This is incredibly true. Everyone laughed when Pennant made a comment that Rafa makes them play like robots but it is completely true. Watching yesterdays game Lyon played with flair and not once did we do anything other than the standard regimental passing. Rafa clearly does not let players express themselves and I have no doubt in my mind that however useless Babel is he would have been a star under Wenger.

We also have a lot of players who do their best to get out of having the responsibility of taking a shot for fear of missing. A lot of times this season, our squad players have tried to pass the ball across to Gerrard or Torres rather than take the easier option and shoot.