Should Rafa be replaced by Guus Hiddink?

[Guest]

Exactly mate. Fergie had the levity to be 'careless' in the transfer knowing his club was awash with cash, so he couldn't give a **** when he wanted to buy a player even if it involved a big risk. He was never pilloried for it too, compared to what Rafa is being subjected to despite doing brilliantly with the money he got.

[the rev leeroy brown]

Because net spend is a crucial concept when looking into this.

For example you say £45mil when looking at our very worst buys (which again isn't a balanced or reasonable way of assessing things). In terms of net spend there's £11mil on Babel and we still have him and £7mil on Dossena and we still have him. Keane cost £21mil and was sold for £18mil so the net amount lost on him was £3mil. So right now we have £21mil out on those three, perhaps his worst buys and we'll probably get at least £10million back in when they're sold so a net loss of £11 million when you bother to apply the most basic maths to the analysis.

Another important thing to look at is the increasing value of players. Take the £20mil on Torres, £6mil on Reina, and £17mil on Mascherano. How much would those players fetch now if sold? Can you think of many in the Premier League that were bought for so much less than they're worth a couple of years later? No and that's a sign of a shrewd manager in the transfer market.

Net spend also means that for example we spent around £36 million on players last summer so ignoring net and gross you'd say his transfer budget was £36mil. The fact of the matter is he didn't have a transfer budget as all this money (and more) came from players that were sold. So no sales = no new signings and not being able to spot a player like Alonso at £10mil and sell him at £35mil means we have to sell a top player to bring in vital additions or worst case scenario just to balance the books. Be careful what you wish for.

You seem to think that every player we buy should do well for us but that isn't the case with any manager at any club and never will be. Veron cost Fergie £28mil and they got £14mil back so there was more of a net loss in that one deal than in the three you've highlighted as being Rafa's worst. He hasn't spent a lot of money on ****e, he's done better than most and that's because he's a good manager.

all good points of which i am aware. i understand the net spending arguement. i agree on the selling on arguement. but what i am trying to get anyone to realsie is that after selling other players to raise more money he still went out and spent 7 mill on dossena who he doesnt play, 12 mill on babel who he doesnt play, 20 mill on keane who never played full games and 6 mill on lucas who has been a poor signing. he could have spent that 45 mill roughly better. thats my arguement. he had the money and spent it on ****. its basic maths alright.

[the rev leeroy brown]

You dont have anything against him, but you still want him sacked?

And you are also saying that Crouch, Bellamy, Momo, Gonzales, and a few others where Rafas first choice?

crouch, gonzales and momo yes i think they were. i dont want him sacked but i wouyldn't mind if he was and we replaced him with the mentioned managers,.

[Kenneth]

simao was more than a rumour ......he was on the plane wasnt he?

So rumour has it.

[Guest]

all good points of which i am aware. i understand the net spending arguement. i agree on the selling on arguement. but what i am trying to get anyone to realsie is that after selling other players to raise more money he still went out and spent 7 mill on dossena who he doesnt play, 12 mill on babel who he doesnt play, 20 mill on keane who never played full games and 6 mill on lucas who has been a poor signing. he could have spent that 45 mill roughly better. thats my arguement. he had the money and spent it on ****. its basic maths alright.

Dossena was a full international and a quality player in Italy. He just didn't adapt here. So you still wanted Rafa to play him to justify his price tag, even if he was ****e? Babel was another player with great potential, he was 20 when he arrived at the club, with plenty of room to work with him. I still think he is a better player than when he arrived.

As for Lucas I think most people are harsh on him. He has been one of our better players this season, doing consistently well. He is not a typical brazilian player in the sense that he isn't flashy and he's had to build up his body mass here because he couldn't cope with the physical side of things in the beginning. Remember, he came when was still 20, just a rookie and coming to the toughest league in the world. He's currently one of our best midfielders and deserves his place on merit.

[red g]

all good points of which i am aware. i understand the net spending arguement. i agree on the selling on arguement. but what i am trying to get anyone to realsie is that after selling other players to raise more money he still went out and spent 7 mill on dossena who he doesnt play, 12 mill on babel who he doesnt play, 20 mill on keane who never played full games and 6 mill on lucas who has been a poor signing. he could have spent that 45 mill roughly better. thats my arguement. he had the money and spent it on ****. its basic maths alright.

every manager makes mistakes!!!!!! he isnt going to get everything right!!!

[BFG]

all good points of which i am aware. i understand the net spending arguement. i agree on the selling on arguement. but what i am trying to get anyone to realsie is that after selling other players to raise more money he still went out and spent 7 mill on dossena who he doesnt play, 12 mill on babel who he doesnt play, 20 mill on keane who never played full games and 6 mill on lucas who has been a poor signing. he could have spent that 45 mill roughly better. thats my arguement. he had the money and spent it on ****. its basic maths alright.

But you seem to think that Rafa is the only manager out there to make signings that aren't always classed as 'successful' and that's not true at all, it's just his seem to be more highlighted.

Lucas at £6mil I think is a good signing anyway but compare him to Nani and Anderson at £18mil a piece and Tosic at a reported £17mil ('who?' I hear you say, imagine having the luxury of £17million reserves!). And all this is without mentioning Taibi, Djemba or Kleberson.

Of course just pointing out Fergie's flops is as unbalanced as doing the same to Rafa as he's also had many good ones but it does show that relatively speaking Rafa does just as well in the market as his peers, if not better.

[Guest]

But you seem to think that Rafa is the only manager out there to make signings that aren't always classed as 'successful' and that's not true at all, it's just his seem to be more highlighted.

Lucas at £6mil I think is a good signing anyway but compare him to Nani and Anderson at £18mil a piece and Tosic at a reported £17mil ('who?' I hear you say, imagine having the luxury of £17million reserves!). And all this is without mentioning Taibi, Djemba or Kleberson.

Of course just pointing out Fergie's flops is as unbalanced as doing the same to Rafa as he's also had many good ones but it does show that relatively speaking Rafa does just as well in the market as his peers, if not better.

Rafa's margin for error is very very thin compared to Chelsea or Man. Utd because they can cover their arse with their bigger squad.

[BFG]

Rafa's margin for error is very very thin compared to Chelsea or Man. Utd because they can cover their arse with their bigger squad.

When money is plentiful you can afford bad signings as long as you have good ones also, and noone says a word.

[BobTheCharmer]

valencia so far a flop and will be.

Really????

He's now adding goals to his already impressive game. I'd have him over Kuyt every ****ing time. Ronaldo he ain't but he's doing exactly the job he was signed to do.

[Guest]

Really????

He's now adding goals to his already impressive game. I'd have him over Kuyt every ****ing time. Ronaldo he ain't but he's doing exactly the job he was signed to do.

Still he wasn't 'cheap' at £17m. It's well documented that Rafa was after him but for that kind of money he was going to Man. Utd all the way.

[BobTheCharmer]

Still he wasn't 'cheap' at £17m. It's well documented that Rafa was after him but for that kind of money he was going to Man. Utd all the way.

I didn't say he was cheap. But it looks like money well spent. He's also getting a run of games in his favoured position. There was only one position he was ever going to play. Whereas we seem to sign players and try to force them into our system, square pegs etc

[Shaggy]

Because net spend is a crucial concept when looking into this.

For example you say £45mil when looking at our very worst buys (which again isn't a balanced or reasonable way of assessing things). In terms of net spend there's £11mil on Babel and we still have him and £7mil on Dossena and we still have him. Keane cost £21mil and was sold for £18mil so the net amount lost on him was £3mil. So right now we have £21mil out on those three, perhaps his worst buys and we'll probably get at least £10million back in when they're sold so a net loss of £11 million when you bother to apply the most basic maths to the analysis.

Another important thing to look at is the increasing value of players. Take the £20mil on Torres, £6mil on Reina, and £17mil on Mascherano. How much would those players fetch now if sold? Can you think of many in the Premier League that were bought for so much less than they're worth a couple of years later? No and that's a sign of a shrewd manager in the transfer market.

Net spend also means that for example we spent around £36 million on players last summer so ignoring net and gross you'd say his transfer budget was £36mil. The fact of the matter is he didn't have a transfer budget as all this money (and more) came from players that were sold. So no sales = no new signings and not being able to spot a player like Alonso at £10mil and sell him at £35mil means we have to sell a top player that doesn't want to leave to bring in vital additions or worst case scenario just to balance the books. Be careful what you wish for.

You seem to think that every player we buy should do well for us but that isn't the case with any manager at any club and never will be. Veron cost Fergie £28mil and they got £14mil back so there was more of a net loss in that one deal than in the three you've highlighted as being Rafa's worst. He hasn't spent a lot of money on ****e, he's done better than most and that's because he's a good manager.

[red g]

Really????

He's now adding goals to his already impressive game. I'd have him over Kuyt every ****ing time. Ronaldo he ain't but he's doing exactly the job he was signed to do.

Kuyt has a 1 in 4 ratio for Liverpool and Valencia has scored twice in twelve games for scom and had a 1 in 8 ratio for wigan

[dww]

I'm not sure that Kuyt is out of position as right side of the attack when the team is functioning well as it is close to a 4-3-3 for us and that seems to be a position he regularly played in Holland. The problem is when we are off form, playing too deep and our formation becomes more of a 4-2-3-1. We do need alternatives to Kuyt or in other areas for players to get the best out of one another.